To be saddened that anyone would want to take away a woman’s right to safe abortion?

[Balayagequeen]

It makes me sad and angry that there are so many people who believe that a woman’s right to a termination is up for debate/political football.

It’s always privileged men too.

No woman should be forced to continue with a pregnancy that she doesn’t want.

An abortion is a very safe, simple procedure, it’s a personal and private choice, it’s discreet, no one is ramming it down anyone else’s throat or trying to persuade others to do it. The vast majority of the time is done very early on in the pregnancy. Evidence shows that there are no long term negative physical or mental effects on the woman.

As someone who works for children’s services, there are already far too many children in the care system and they can end up deeply traumatised, and having poor outcomes in life, adoptions often don’t work out and even when they do can be extremely traumatic for both the mother and child. That is not to take away from all of the wonderful adoptive parents and foster carers, but please let’s not romanticise it.

Most adoptions are because the birth parents are unable to care for the child, not because the mother willingly gave the baby up. Therefore to force a woman to give birth would potentially be the worse option for the woman, the child and any existing siblings. It isn’t a fairytale ending where a woman willingly gives up her baby to a loving couple to live happily ever after.

There are babies conceived in poverty, domestic abuse, rape, teenage pregnancies, older age pregnancies. These women should not be forced to give birth, it is not the better option for anyone.

If abortion was ever restricted in the western world then I have no doubt that it would result in unsafe illegal abortions, risking the woman’s life.

Women take all the risk with pregnancy and childbirth. They take an enormous toll on a woman body, her mental health, her life outcomes. We are not living in the dark ages, women deserve the choice.

What right does any privileged male who has probably never experienced any of these things and has probably done very little child rearing, who can never conceive or give birth, have to try to restrict a women’s access to abortion?

Are they themselves going to care for the babies born? Or will they expect that someone else will do it?

War, humanitarian crises, disease - it impacts everybody. Or at least impacts more than one person.

If a woman has 300 abortions she isn’t going round aborting YOUR babies, or anyone else’s. She’s only aborting her own. It doesn’t impact you

I mean she couldn’t “whack” it except for meifcal reasons. But if she had medical reasons to do so, yes it’s ok. Of course it is. I’m not sure how being a twin is relevant

Why did she have to deliver one early but not the other??

Childbirth and rising a kid should not be seen as a teaching a woman a lesson in contraception choices. Do you think so little of children that they be seen in this way?

That’s exactly it

I’ll always think people who are anti choice are misogynists, but I do have more respect for those who acknowledge anti choice laws are dangerous and don’t advocate for a ban.

Much like those who want to outlaw gay marriage, people who want to outlaw abortions are primitive nutjobs who should probably move to a country that has banned abortions and see how they get along as women there. Spoiler alert: those countries would hate you even if you are “pro life”

I read a quote recently, the largest risk of death for a pregnant lady, is male violence.
Abortion gives many women an escape.

Very few people escape poverty. This is real life not a Hollywood movie. Children living in poverty have their every faction in life affected. Button, growth, health, exam results, mental health, education, job prospects, chances of entering the criminal justice system. and they have extremely high likelihood of poverty from cradle to grave.

Im saying we shouldn’t add to the care system or poverty group where we can avoid it, in a safe legal way that literally affects nobody and causes no societal problems, and has the added bonus of not forcing women to give birth.

You haven’t answered my question. Why is thousands of children entering a system where their quality of life WILL be terrible, worth it just so they can take a breath?

What’s unsafe?

Fetuses on the legal weeks of abortion aren’t aware and don’t feel pain or distress.

Whats the unsafe bit?

And where do women factor in your thinking? Remember women? The ACTUAL living humans?

😆 "Murder."
Google Donohue and Levitt for the real impact of abortion on crime.

Interesting to hear you support women dying from unsafe abortions, meaning the fetus also dies. Isn't that rather murderous towards both women and fetuses (if they were people, that is) of you yourself?
I'll be charitable and assume you just haven't thought this through, because that shit is crazy.

I am not sure I could ever have made a choice to have an abortion myself , but I am absolutely totally and utterly clear that it is a woman’s right to choose.

Coming from Ireland, we only relatively recently got that right to choose. But I remember many scares of friends, half my primary school class had babies before the end of secondary school (some not by choice) and I was relatively lucky to have the ability to control enough to only have my DC when I felt I was in a position to be a mum.

when I see what’s happening in the US, I get really upset. Because it’s not just about birth control. It’s about men deciding what is, and is not, the role of women. And not seeing them as equals but as vessels and vassals.

There are certain circumstances that I feel abortion is acceptable. I may not agree with all reasons that women have one but ultimately it's their choice.

I think a lot of women here are in the privileged position of never having lived in a country where abortion is illegal. There is this idea that of course Drs will act if a womans life is at risk, of course they wouldn't leave women to suffer but that isn't the reality. There was an outpouring of stories in Ireland before the vote on the 8th amendment, 1000s of stories of women who suffered in ways you would never think of. 43% of people said that reading/hearing personal stories was a factor in voting to decriminalize abortion. The stories were harrowing and day after day more and more women spoke up.

All of that suffering for what? Because Ireland wasn't abortion free, women were 'travelling' everyday, women were receiving pills in the post everyday. All the abortion ban did was make women suffer for longer, make abortions happen at a later term than they would have if abortion were legal, it didn't mean that abortions didn't happen.

When I heard Savitas story I never imagined it might be me in the same hospital less than 10 years later with my story heading the same way. When I was in hospital all I could think of was her, the fact that she died there and that Irish women fought so that my story would end differently to hers and it makes me so sad that there are women here would sign up maybe themselves, their friends, their daughter for pain and suffering because of their ideology.

There are also more nuanced positions too.

For example I support abortion, but think the limit being at 5/6 months for viable pregnancies is incredibly insane.

It's not always a black and white debate.

I’m not contradicting myself. I’m saying the language you use is just semantics.

A 38 week gestation foetus can be loved and have an expectation that of life, just as much as a 1 week old foetus, so that argument doesn’t wash either.

Well in the UK a baby aborted at 38 weeks would be so to save the life of the mother. Or would you prefer she died, even thought the baby would die too, because <checks notes> it could be loved?

Once again - I don’t care if you see a fetus as being living. The life of the pregnant woman trumps the fetuses life

How do you know every single woman looking for a late term abortion is doing it to ‘save their life’? If there is a medical emergency, then the baby would be delivered, not aborted. If you mean ‘save their life from becoming the mother of an unwanted child’ then I’m sorry, it’s just too late for that.

I think if you want to join in the conversation you should do basic research about legalities and statistics in this country. Why haven’t you? If you had you’d find a 38 week abortion ONLY happens in the case of Saving the mothers life and all post-24 weeks abortions are due to serious medical reasons and threat of life.

I’m aware of the law but there are constant calls from some mumsnetters, on this thread and others, for the law to be changed and abortion to be legalised for all gestations. You are clearly one of them. ‘As early as possible, as late as necessary’ seems to be continually trotted out on here.

Personally I would quite like to see the legal limit lowered from 24 weeks, to reflect the fact that foetuses of 22, 23 weeks gestation are now potentially viable. As well as current evidence regarding development of pain perception etc. However, I think it’s really important that those women seeking a termination on medical grounds following bad news at the 20 week anomaly scan are able to access this without any difficulty, so that would need careful consideration.

And I say that as someone who was not allowed the proper pain meds I needed at one point because of their potential to cause abortions - not as a primary objective but potential side effect. And when pain paracetamol and ibuprofen didn’t touch my back pain caused by 2 separate whip lash incidents, I was being denied pain meds that worked unless I had a coil to prevent any chance of a pregnancy - despite crippling back pain…not that I was trying to get pregnant, I was just trying to got through a day and a week in any semblance of functionality…..how was that the concern of anyone except me and my doctor treating my absolutely real and significant back pain impacting very seriously on my day to day life?!

Nobody will ever force you to have an abortion and no woman should be forced to continue with an unwanted pregnancy. Abortion is a personal and private matter and does not in any way impact on you as an individual.

There is a huge difference between me saying I judge and disagree with women not even trying to protect themselves and forced birth.

I see it as a life being ended.

So people already in poverty or care have such awful lives devoid of hope they should be dead but we can't legally kill them at this point?

I disagree when you say "literally affects nobody"

I doubt you’re aware of the law because you just had to check the reasons for abortions at 38 weeks.

on this thread and others, for the law to be changed and abortion to be legalised for all gestations.

Are there?! where?

You are clearly one of them.

I mean I’ve said a few times that I agree with the current laws of abortions to 24 weeks then medical reasons after that but you crack on making things up if it makes you happy

Are you ok hun?

I’ve already stated the different status of features vs living humans and how I think living humans should have equal human rights. That means doing everything we can to alleviate poverty for people with human rights (aka all born living humans). That’s not me saying people in poverty should be dead. What a WEIRD take. You could touch the moon with that reach. Bless you for trying though.

I was asking YOU why you pro life people seem to mean “pro live birth” rather than “pro quality of life”. Why don’t you care that poverty and looked after children numbers will increase?

Who does a woman having an abortion affect? Her neighbour? Her dog? The hamster? Who?

@Goodygummdrops are you gonna answer my questions about why you think the ultimate goal is passing through the birth canal and taking a breath no matter the shit life a baby will inevitably lead and the risk to so many people involved? Why is that very moment so important that you’re risking SO MUCH of so many people’s lives?

I’ve answered your mental posts, perhaps you could answer a perfectly reasonable question?

The language anyone uses is just semantics 😂 would you rather I drew you a picture?

As I’ve previously stated, I’m fully aware of the law in the UK. We are having a debate because some people want the law to change. Some seek to further restrict access to abortion, others want to see all restrictions lifted. I had the distinct impression from your posts that you were in the latter camp - am I wrong?

I’m with you OP.

I feel saddened but also angry.

You aren’t fully aware of the law e side you ask how I know 38 weeks abortions only happen for medical reasons.

I know because it’s the law, and if you knew the law as you claim, you’d know too

You can’t have read my posts properly, or a honest, because neither I or anyone else has advocated for all restrictions lifted.

I doubt you’re aware of the law because you just had to check the reasons for abortions at 38 weeks.

what does this even mean? Check reasons? Of course I am aware of the law, I’m fairly sure everyone in the UK is. Why would you think otherwise? Is it because you don’t understand the concept of debate, and hypothetical situations?

I mean I’ve said a few times that I agree with the current laws of abortions to 24 weeks then medical reasons after that but you crack on making things up if it makes you happy

I have to say I’m pretty surprised by this. Why have you been arguing with me and others, implying you agree with 3rd trimester elective abortions? Do you just enjoy a good fight?