To be alarmed at the number of women who are throwing support behind causes that are clearly anti-woman?

[DorothyGaleFromKansas]

With the recent threads about flags/immigrants and Charlie Kirk etc, there seem to be a bewildering number of women supporting causes that directly go against their own interests, and it’s baffling and frankly a bit disturbing.

Reform have voted against tougher laws on stalking, sexual harassment and upskirting, against clamping down on revenge porn, and against further protections in the workplace. Farage cited Andrew Tate as “an important voice for men”.

Then you have Trump, who was found to have committed rape, forced himself into changing rooms where teenagers were undressing, made sexual comments about his own daughter, not to mention 34 other felonies, and that’s before we even get to the Epstein files.

Charlie Kirk said that women should only vote if they were voting for the candidate chosen by their husband, that women shouldn’t go on to higher education unless it was to find a husband, that women should have to submit to their husbands, and that little girls as young as 9 or 10 including his own daughters should be forced to give birth to babies conceived as a result of rape.

What has happened to us that there are so many women willing to endorse attitudes like this? And how do we fix it?! How have we sunk so low that there are women who think this is what we all deserve? It’s terrifying.

I think it's pretty clear from CK's statements overall about abortion that he didn't support any kind of rape exception. I understand you're saying he was caught w a horrible question, but I don't just think it was that, I think that was sincere view about rape exceptions in general.

Imo, that IS a vile opinion. Kirk should be viewed in a balanced way: his comments on guns, empathy & black people have been distorted. But he DID have some abhorrent views, and that is one of them.

Let's hope you won't continue to patronise adult women when they raise valid concerns about men in their toilets, changing spaces and rape centres then.

But is it abhorrent! Or is it in line with his religion?

How many people criticising Charlie Kirk’s views have been waving Palestinian flags where the views on abortion are even worse?

It is OK for someone to say that's what they want for themselves, but when they start telling women this is what they should do then it becomes control and I'm not having it. Let the men have kids first and then build careers. There is no reason why they can't.

I support a 2 state solution. I'll outline below :

There's a problem on both political sides where each side is caricatured. Many people who support a Palestinian state do not want to erase Israel. Many also recognise that there can be no meaningful Palestinian state for a long time, until Hamas are gone & the population have been deradicalised.

The problem is the loudest, most-publicised voices are the anti-Semitic, pro-Hamas evil ones. Similarly, there are many reasonable people who support stricter immigration controls but the ones who draw the most attention are the violent, openly racist thuggish ones who call the police wankers and urinate in public (eg. Some of the arrested charmers at Unite The Kingdom).

As to religion, being sanctioned by a religion (though the Bible actually has very little to say unambiguously about abortion) doesn't stop something from being abhorrent. That applies to Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Sikhism and all others. I will never allow anyone of any religion to use that as an excuse.

Also, abortion in Palestine is only legal to save the life of the mother. That's the same as some US states (Alabama, South Dakota) and better than the ones which don't allow ANY abortion.

Don't get me wrong Hamas are totally vile, much worse than the worst US government. But factually, on this issue, their positions are quite similar. The main difference is that most US states require 2 doctors' consent, like here (need to check this) while in Palestine you need at least 3.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cpvvvl9zq4eo#:~:text=Access%20to%20legal%20abortion%20in,the%20health%20of%20the%20mother.

https://lux-magazine.com/article/abortions-palestine/

With due respect, I dont think people wave palestinian flags because they think palestine is a great democracy with wonderful policies. They are sickened by the continuous murder and starvation of thousands of children whoever they are. Not that this is the thread for this.

Why do you think it's a competition? Why do you believe we can't care about more than one issue at once? Women can multitask, you know. And fyi, protecting female only spaces LESSENS the chances of women being raped, murdered, abused, harassed and assaulted. That's kind of the point.

@DaisyBeatrice 'misandry' doesn't really exist, there's no such thing, just as 'reverse-racism' doesn't exist. 'Misandry' is just a slur to silence women who are rightfully and justifiably fearful of the male oppressor and predator sex.

It's interesting that we are talking about WOMENS rights, and you somehow always manage to turn that into 'trans' 'rights'. Why is that? I suggest that it shows your internalised misogyny where you take the focus off womens rights, and put it onto mens rights. You think changing to narrative to 'trans' rights will stop feminists speaking, don't you? It never has been about trans 'rights'. But about womens rights.

I'd love to know what's so 'unpleasant' about saying men can't become women and men should stay out of women's sex specific spaces. Anyone care to elaborate?

It really doesn’t. Over a third of all rapes in the UK happen in the victim’s home. The most common locations after that are the perpetrator’s home which accounts for almost another third, followed by public spaces such as parks and beaches.

Or, a lot of people will support men who support trans rights, even if they have a record of misogyny - and most of them do.

Yes women are unsafe in lots of places.

Why anyone thinks this is a good reason to make them less safe in public places where they are changing /vulnerable in some way - I just can't fathom. Why would anyone support that?

Everyone's timely reminder of the attitudes of some TRAs towards women

terfisaslur.com

Because there is no evidence that those spaces are unsafe. It’s no better than the flagshaggers screaming that migrants are raping women and children when in fact the overwhelming numbers of offenders are white briitish.

How many women have to be hurt before you decide they are allowed to set their own boundaries in these spaces.

Can we have a number on it?

It’s exactly this type of baseless hyperbole that’s the problem. Look at what you are doing. You are frothing away over women only spaces and trans people whilst allowing the main perpetrators of violence against women to go on their merry way unchecked. If even half the focus you all put into vilifying trans people went towards work to reduce domestic violence, which accounts for over 50% of rapes in the UK, think of the difference that would make. But no, you prefer to focus all your energy on the 0.05% instead.

If you want to pretend the parties caught up in the trans right culture wars that the further right parties and media are whipping up, are doing the same things to women as Trump and Reform are trying to, you really need to educate yourself. I suggest picking up a history book.

If you want to pretend (or try to convince yourself) that feminists who care about womens hard won sex-based rights and spaces are 'right wing' you are being absolutely delusional and in denial. Also, it's interesting you also say this is about 'trans rights'. See, this is where you are wrong. It's about WOMENS rights. Not 'trans rights'. It never was about trans rights. It's about the struggle for FEMALE spaces. I suggest you educate yourself. Pick up a history book yourself on the struggles of women for our spaces and rights. Google the Urinary Leash to start with.

Then come back here and dare tell us feminists we are 'right wing' because we won't go with you to shit on the headstones at the graves of our foremother feminists who achieved these spaces and rights.

Reposting my point from earlier in the thread about why fighting the lie that some men's minds makes them really women is important to women even if those individual men are not the greatest source of danger to women:

It's basic Feminism and women's rights.

It's living and growing up in a society where all of us are to some extent still socialised to put more weight and credibility on male voices and presence than female, and to expect different social behaviours and levels of ambition or accomodation and #kindess from men and women, and understanding that regardless of our conscious beliefs this impacts the way women act in public, and so having spaces where we can be without men matters to us in ways that having spaces where men can be without women doesn't matter to men.

It's about being able to say very clearly that sexualising female bodies and thereby normalising male sexual agression and encrouchment on women makes women uncomfortable, reduces our social authority and puts us in danger, without having the waters muddied by accomodating people who insist they are a "woman" based on an idea of womanhood that is defined by women's sexualisation.

It's about being able to draw a clear line between the heavier reproductive burden women unavoidably carry and the heavier domestic burden we also get dumped with, the way it ties us to the home and a provider and makes us vulnerable to financial, emotional and domestic abuse, and the worse life chances and financial outcomes we end up with because of this.

It's about being able to say that regardless of what men who identify as women may feel about themselves, most of what happens to us "as women" rather than just "as people" is not because of how we identify but because of our bodies, because of how others react to us and what they expect of us because of our bodies, and because of how we learn to see ourselves as a result.

It's all very well snapping trite little soundbites about how the Right know what women are so they can abuse and control them, but what the Left refuse to admit, and why so many women feel politically homeless, is that if you follow that logic through, you realise that exactly because Trumps and the Charlie Kirks of this world do see that female people exist and do want to control us because of our biology, we cannot accept the Left excluding the reality of our biology and the social impact it brings from their political discourse.

You can stamp your feet as much as you want, and wonder why women are turning away from the left.

I am not 'frothing'. These are women's legal rights to their own sex specific spaces.

Why are you trying to smear women standing up for their legal rights by suggesting they are some extremist fringe lunatics?

This.

These people will never learn it seems

Because if you say a man can be a woman then you erase the definition of a woman which is the basis for women's rights. You end up with any man being able to identify into women's spaces, including rapists and violent male offenders being housed in women's prisons and women seeking support after suffering rape being forced to share their ordeal with men who identify as women or not have access to counselling. I voted Labour in the last election because they managed to make just enough of the right noises about 'safe' spaces for women to show they understood there's a problem. I would never vote for a political party that would allow men to identify as women and use women's spaces (Greens and Lib Dems). Transgenderism is an existential threat to women's rights.