To be alarmed at the number of women who are throwing support behind causes that are clearly anti-woman?

[DorothyGaleFromKansas]

With the recent threads about flags/immigrants and Charlie Kirk etc, there seem to be a bewildering number of women supporting causes that directly go against their own interests, and it’s baffling and frankly a bit disturbing.

Reform have voted against tougher laws on stalking, sexual harassment and upskirting, against clamping down on revenge porn, and against further protections in the workplace. Farage cited Andrew Tate as “an important voice for men”.

Then you have Trump, who was found to have committed rape, forced himself into changing rooms where teenagers were undressing, made sexual comments about his own daughter, not to mention 34 other felonies, and that’s before we even get to the Epstein files.

Charlie Kirk said that women should only vote if they were voting for the candidate chosen by their husband, that women shouldn’t go on to higher education unless it was to find a husband, that women should have to submit to their husbands, and that little girls as young as 9 or 10 including his own daughters should be forced to give birth to babies conceived as a result of rape.

What has happened to us that there are so many women willing to endorse attitudes like this? And how do we fix it?! How have we sunk so low that there are women who think this is what we all deserve? It’s terrifying.

Read what I said again. I said I don’t know if I would have felt threatened by someone who was trans living in the same refuge as us because there was no one trans living there when we did. No idea if there has been since. If my ex or one of the other exes had rocked up then yeah, I’d have had concerns.

As for the millionth time edit, what are you on about? Half of the thread seems to be mentioning trans in relation to women’s rights.

Of course not. But I can’t speak for them and nor should I.

But if your ex did rock up claiming to be a woman, chances are he’d have been allowed in. According to the left, he is a woman if he says he is so should be allowed in women’s spaces. The posters are mentioning the trans issue as it affects women and their rights. Or do you not get that?

I will admit the trans in spaces like refuges and women’s prisons is something I don’t know how I feel about. I know how helpless I felt waiting for a refuge space to become available and I’d hate for anyone to feel as scared as I was or suffer what I did the last few days before we got into one. There needs to be somewhere for everyone to go to if they find themselves a victim of abuse. Women in prison have overwhelmingly usually been victims of abuse at some time in their lives so are also vulnerable to more abuse.

My worry when trans people in women only spaces gets raised is that then everyone (media for example) focuses only on that and not on the fact there is nowhere near enough refuge spaces available. And that due to cuts to law enforcement including prisons, prisoners aren’t safe from things they should be safe from. Not to mention the frightening amount of them who are released too early and really shouldn’t be.

So yeah. I might not sound sane. I can live with that.

There are actual examples.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6894599/amp/When-man-called-Mark-locked-threatening-kill-mother-child.html

Men who claim to be trans are still men.
And by the very fact of forcing us to lie about what we can see
are MORE of a threat than the ones who tell the truth.

THAT is why women's rights are in direct conflict
with those of men who want us to lie.

You literally cannot comprehend why someone might muse about the ethics of aborting babies at a theoretically viable gestation, aside from "he must be being paid off by the evangelical lobby"?

Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of American money in Reform, but even among those sources abortion is not the #1 driving issue.

As far as abortion goes, if it’s not me having an abortion it’s not my business. There are so few abortions carried out that late in the pregnancy anyway so it’s not a pressing issue really imo.

I’ve read a lot about this recently and it’s a type of internalised misogyny - often these women are trying to fit in with what ‘their’ men think they should be like, because they’re scared of being alone. Also, some women just envy other women - they look at high achieving women, compare to what they have/haven’t achieved and try to drag the other women down. There was an old saying, ‘no better than she should be’ so internalised misogyny has been round for many years but I think it’s getting worse actually.

We've all met women like that. The ones who suck up to.men, dont have any women friends. There used to be a woman at work like that. She was involved with the financial side of the organisation. She really cared what the ( male ) manager thought of her , even crying on a couple of occasions when he didn't take her ideas on board. She made such a difference between him and the women . And it was quite clear that it was because he was a man, and not just because he was the manager. It was quite nauseating to witness at times.

I can’t believe that people can’t see the power tripping.

You can say its nobody's business about any situation a woman finds herself in though.

Like when she is accessing a rape centre, or gynae exam. In that moment it is entirely her body, her mental health and her business if she wants care from a member of the same sex.

The leftists tell her No and call her vile names for it.

What is someone is being coerced into having an abortion? Whether that be a domestic situation or from a professional? Is that anyone else's business. That hypothetical 10 year old might not WANT an abortion. Yet all the adults in the room would be telling her to do it. At what point is it her right to decide other than her parents?

Please don't make assumptions about my character. I am in no way invested in either 'casually handing over' anything women have fought for over the years, or being 'seen as progressive and kind', by expressing the view that sometimes situations need to be looked at in isolation as well as within the wider context.

There have been plenty posted to the thread already. All of the Trump interviews can be found on YouTube, the Charlie Kirk ones are linked throughout the thread.

What? None of that has anything to do with a woman’s right to choose an abortion. which is what I was talking about. No woman should ever find herself coerced into an abortion

FWIW, if god forbid, one of my daughters was pregnant at 10 years old* I would absolutely want them to have an abortion. Why the fuck would I want my child to go through childbirth when they’re so very young on top of the trauma of rape?

*or any other very young age.

I have mainly male friends mainly due to my interests? Heavy metal, the occult and history. I also find men much better company and less judgemental as a whole than groups of women. I certainly don’t suck up to men, but I find they handle opposing opinions better than many women. I do have female friends, most of whom are neuro divergent because I find that they are better at acccepting people for different view points.

Really interesting. I'd have said the same five years ago. My hobbies and my career are male dominated and I'm not especially girly, so I ended up with mostly male friends.

I don't know if it's menopause or aging or my female cohort re-emerging from the childcare years or my male cohort entering their Meldrew stage, but I'm finding I'm drawn much more to female conversation these days. The idea of being stuck on a table with a bunch of blokes at an event leaves me far colder than being stuck with a bunch of women.

Editted to add: and I don't find the women I socialise and chat with at all unaccepting of different view points, which I think is definitely a function of age. The women have become less judgy, the men more so.

It’s the amount of internalised misogyny on mumsnet, OP @DorothyGaleFromKansas

So many women on here willing to suffer and martyr themselves for boys/men and are incredulous when other women are not prepared to do the same 🤷‍♀️

Fuck that shit I think.

That's interesting re history: there's plenty of evidence that women are just as likely to study it, and large numbers ARE historians, but they decrease at senior academic levels, probs bc of balancing w children, I suspect.

It depends what history topics you like, though, some have many more men interested.

https://www.google.com/search?q=percentage+of+female+histiriana&oq=percentage+of+female+histiriana&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIICAEQABgNGB4yDQgCEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyDQgDEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyCggEEAAYgAQYogQyCggFEAAYgAQYogQyCggGEAAYgAQYogQyBwgHECEYjwLSAQg3MjQ0ajFqNKgCAbACAQ&client=ms-android-samsung-ss&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

But thats the point! You wouldn't be giving HER THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE. You forgot your first paragraph already. Everyone jumped all over what Charlie said when they asked him what would he do if his daughter got pregnant and got mad at his answer. They never once stopped to question if they were even considering her own decision. They just automatically assumed she would want an abortion. Just like you have assumed for your own daughter.

The rest of it is relevant cos you seem to value the right to an abortion but not the right to single sex spaces. Why won't you let us choose both?

The reality is any parent and child in such circumstances would find themselves with an impossible dilemma. The child could grow up to resent the parents choice to put them through a forced birth or a forced abortion.
It was a ridiculous hypothetical question to ask a parent in an open public forum. Like asking you which child you would save in a fire if you could only save one.
Charlie answered in a way that would work for his family and people use it as a justification for shooting him.

I think the problem is that the same parties that are speaking against trans people will also restrict women's rights. If you support Reform and the Republicans you support reducing access to abortion.

My feeling is that people feel so ostracised for their views on trans people in women's spaces that they will support anyone who is for women's spaces. But this comes at the cost of other hard-won rights.

That is the fault of the parties and figures refusing to listen to women and leaving them politically homeless. All the people lamenting on here about why are women voting for "anti-women" parties are simply expecting them to vote instead for other anti-women parties. They are not prepared to stand up for the rights of all women

In the UK, the right to abortion before 24 weeks - and later if essential -
is not a party political issue.
There are people in all of the >10 MP parties who advocate both ways
but as it is in legislation
nothing will change any time soon.

In the USA, Roe V Wade was never backed up by legislation
and it became a party wedge issue years ago
hence why with a split Senate it has been impossible for either party to prevail due to the filibuster.
Gerrymandering at State level has led to egregious local laws
and
nothing will change any time soon

She hasn't said she agrees with any of them, just that it's her right to make up her mind about them, not be told what's wrong by someone else. I tend to agree.

I haven’t forgotten what I wrote you silly sausage. But there is a world of difference in 10 year old child being pregnant and an adult woman. It’s concerning that you don’t see that. I don’t want to assume that you would patronise an adult woman by treating her as if she was a child but I do wonder.

I would never, ever advocate murdering anyone for their own opinion btw, I never once said I would.

You’re really not making the clever argument you think you are.