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To be alarmed at the number of women who are throwing support behind causes that are clearly anti-woman?

1000 replies

DorothyGaleFromKansas · 13/09/2025 13:18

With the recent threads about flags/immigrants and Charlie Kirk etc, there seem to be a bewildering number of women supporting causes that directly go against their own interests, and it’s baffling and frankly a bit disturbing.

Reform have voted against tougher laws on stalking, sexual harassment and upskirting, against clamping down on revenge porn, and against further protections in the workplace. Farage cited Andrew Tate as “an important voice for men”.

Then you have Trump, who was found to have committed rape, forced himself into changing rooms where teenagers were undressing, made sexual comments about his own daughter, not to mention 34 other felonies, and that’s before we even get to the Epstein files.

Charlie Kirk said that women should only vote if they were voting for the candidate chosen by their husband, that women shouldn’t go on to higher education unless it was to find a husband, that women should have to submit to their husbands, and that little girls as young as 9 or 10 including his own daughters should be forced to give birth to babies conceived as a result of rape.

What has happened to us that there are so many women willing to endorse attitudes like this? And how do we fix it?! How have we sunk so low that there are women who think this is what we all deserve? It’s terrifying.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
29
ThreeWordHarpy · 13/09/2025 16:00

JHound · 13/09/2025 15:47

Thanks for that. I was completely unaware of Atwood and have never read any of her works.

Hang on, I just typed out a reply to a post of yours where you say Is this a different version of the book to the one I read?

have you read it or not?

FellowSuffereroftheAbsurd · 13/09/2025 16:01

I don't really think anything happened to us, more that social media makes it all look bigger than it really is. Yes, there are women who support the anti-immigrant rhetoric or Trump, and there are women posting videos gleefully dancing around about Kirk's murder, going on about how he isn't martyr material and now his life and everything he said will now be meaningless. I think most women, maybe even the vast majority, have a lot in their daily lives where none that is on their minds, like others mentioned the rising costs concerned.

As many have said, different women have different perspectives on what is our 'best interest'. That's why there are dozens of branches of feminism that disagree on both the root cause and likely solutions faced by girls and women, before even getting into the anti-feminist movements. It's why back when suffrage was the big debate, there were women loudly against it for many reasons, including concerns about the draft and coercion in the vote from husbands. Presuming it's something 'happened to us' is to both homogenise and erase a lot of women's history.

Those crimes are about power, not sexuality. As sexuality within the UK and US is self-identified regardless of sexual behaviour, I don't think we actually have the data nor do I think there is a benefit to specifying sexuality on this.

I had no strong reaction to Kirk's murder. I have a bit of concern it will spark off more violence in the US both in the act itself and in how some people have made social media posts celebrating it adding fuel to a growing powder keg, and much like with the shooting with Trump among other high profiles ones from the US recently, there is a slight discomfort that the official line on the shooter isn't adding up, but it'll all pass til the next thing.

The vast majority of women who are raped, murdered, abused and harassed are assaulted by straight, white men.

As you've specified white, I'm presuming you mean in the UK and with Trump and Kirk, the US where white people are the majority. Obviously, globally, white men don't commit the vast majority of those crimes and really, for victims, whether they've been attacked by someone part of that national or global majority matters very little. If anything, it makes it harder when the perpetrator isn't who people expect.

Those are all factually set out in the bible. Perhaps you haven’t read it properly
Which Bible and which translation? Have you checked the notes on the choices and aim of the translation used? Are you reading it as univocal or multivocal?
How we define reading the Bible properly depends what you're reading it for. If it's to find flaws in it to discuss why it shouldn't be followed, then you may need stronger examples from sources discussing better issues than these:

But the bible is a book written by men, 1800 years ago.
We don't have authorship for most of the Bible, including all of the gospels, beyond traditions. We cannot determine sex of unknown authors. The closest you can get is that, with the evidence that we have, that the councils that determined canon were all men for early European denominations. Also, obviously, everything before the New Testament is older than that.

Do you wear any synthetic fabrics? Because the bible says that’s not allowed.
There is nothing on synthetic fabrics - they didn't exist. There is a law on not wearing clothes mixed of wool and linen, and there is also a law that priests wear attire that has mixed wool and linen. There is mixed opinions on whether one should be read in relation to the other - that only priests are to wear it - or whether these are combined from different sources or whether within context it's more a symbolic speech on not mixing with other nations.

Do you kill a ram every time you commit a sin? The bible says you should.
It would be very unBiblical to do so - ram sacrifices were only for particular guilt sins, and only when the Temple is standing. That's why in post-exilic texts, after the First Temple was destroyed, there is writing on prayers and true repentance being more valued than sacrifice.

Do you think people should be stoned to death if they have an affair?
There is a really easy arguments Christians could use in modelling their behaviour after what Jesus did with the adulteress of telling her to go and sin no more.

I don't hold the Bible as a holy text. I do think that it's a culturally important text that is taught poorly, and both powers that support use of the Bible and to a lesser extent those against it do take advantage of the Bible being culturally well known just enough to make pretty much any argument.

TheJoyOfWriting · 13/09/2025 16:01

OneGladRoseTiger · 13/09/2025 15:50

Oh good! Another anti-American post! This time disguised as concern for women’s safety.

Since you know so much, OP, please do let us know which of our president’s 34 felonies are a threat to women? The felonies relate to financial crimes so I don’t even see why you felt the need to even mention that. Is your Angela’s tax evasion a threat to women? Because it’s pretty much the same crime. But that doesn’t fit your narrative, of course.

What about the multiple rape allegations and the links to Epstein, including that beautiful letter?

Talkinpeace · 13/09/2025 16:02

@PrinnyPree
We do not "fear trans people"
we just do not wish to have male trans identifying people forcing themselves into female spaces
against the wishes of the women already there.

And yes I have met several trans identifying men, some of whom are very good company
so long as they never forget they are male in every cell of their bodies.

As the Supreme Court rightly said
lesbians have a right to single sex groups

TheJoyOfWriting · 13/09/2025 16:03

FellowSuffereroftheAbsurd · 13/09/2025 16:01

I don't really think anything happened to us, more that social media makes it all look bigger than it really is. Yes, there are women who support the anti-immigrant rhetoric or Trump, and there are women posting videos gleefully dancing around about Kirk's murder, going on about how he isn't martyr material and now his life and everything he said will now be meaningless. I think most women, maybe even the vast majority, have a lot in their daily lives where none that is on their minds, like others mentioned the rising costs concerned.

As many have said, different women have different perspectives on what is our 'best interest'. That's why there are dozens of branches of feminism that disagree on both the root cause and likely solutions faced by girls and women, before even getting into the anti-feminist movements. It's why back when suffrage was the big debate, there were women loudly against it for many reasons, including concerns about the draft and coercion in the vote from husbands. Presuming it's something 'happened to us' is to both homogenise and erase a lot of women's history.

Those crimes are about power, not sexuality. As sexuality within the UK and US is self-identified regardless of sexual behaviour, I don't think we actually have the data nor do I think there is a benefit to specifying sexuality on this.

I had no strong reaction to Kirk's murder. I have a bit of concern it will spark off more violence in the US both in the act itself and in how some people have made social media posts celebrating it adding fuel to a growing powder keg, and much like with the shooting with Trump among other high profiles ones from the US recently, there is a slight discomfort that the official line on the shooter isn't adding up, but it'll all pass til the next thing.

The vast majority of women who are raped, murdered, abused and harassed are assaulted by straight, white men.

As you've specified white, I'm presuming you mean in the UK and with Trump and Kirk, the US where white people are the majority. Obviously, globally, white men don't commit the vast majority of those crimes and really, for victims, whether they've been attacked by someone part of that national or global majority matters very little. If anything, it makes it harder when the perpetrator isn't who people expect.

Those are all factually set out in the bible. Perhaps you haven’t read it properly
Which Bible and which translation? Have you checked the notes on the choices and aim of the translation used? Are you reading it as univocal or multivocal?
How we define reading the Bible properly depends what you're reading it for. If it's to find flaws in it to discuss why it shouldn't be followed, then you may need stronger examples from sources discussing better issues than these:

But the bible is a book written by men, 1800 years ago.
We don't have authorship for most of the Bible, including all of the gospels, beyond traditions. We cannot determine sex of unknown authors. The closest you can get is that, with the evidence that we have, that the councils that determined canon were all men for early European denominations. Also, obviously, everything before the New Testament is older than that.

Do you wear any synthetic fabrics? Because the bible says that’s not allowed.
There is nothing on synthetic fabrics - they didn't exist. There is a law on not wearing clothes mixed of wool and linen, and there is also a law that priests wear attire that has mixed wool and linen. There is mixed opinions on whether one should be read in relation to the other - that only priests are to wear it - or whether these are combined from different sources or whether within context it's more a symbolic speech on not mixing with other nations.

Do you kill a ram every time you commit a sin? The bible says you should.
It would be very unBiblical to do so - ram sacrifices were only for particular guilt sins, and only when the Temple is standing. That's why in post-exilic texts, after the First Temple was destroyed, there is writing on prayers and true repentance being more valued than sacrifice.

Do you think people should be stoned to death if they have an affair?
There is a really easy arguments Christians could use in modelling their behaviour after what Jesus did with the adulteress of telling her to go and sin no more.

I don't hold the Bible as a holy text. I do think that it's a culturally important text that is taught poorly, and both powers that support use of the Bible and to a lesser extent those against it do take advantage of the Bible being culturally well known just enough to make pretty much any argument.

Are you saying some women wanted to prevent the vote going to women in case husbands coerced them? So they wanted to deny ALL women the chance to vote in case SOME got coerced?

I don't think any feminist on MN thinks the vote just 'happened' to women. Wr know the suffragists and suffragettes FOUGHT for it.

Wilfulignoranceabounds · 13/09/2025 16:04

DorothyGaleFromKansas · 13/09/2025 13:57

Are you able to say anything without bringing it round to trans rights? Anything at all?

I’m guessing that would be a ‘no’, 😂

JHound · 13/09/2025 16:04

WishinAndHopin · 13/09/2025 15:53

Evidence of Kirk mocking deaths of those he dislikes, please.

That’s on me. I should not have said “mocked death” but he expressed zero sympathy bordering on mockery (whether for Palestinian women and children victims of Israeli bombs, his calls for people to bail out the man who viciously attacker Pelosi’s husband, his comments on Flloyd (as well as repeating debunked claims).)

He contributed directly to the same culture that would mock his death.

seagullstolemypie · 13/09/2025 16:05

@Damnthemansavetheempir How about we protect the women and girls from the English white men that attack, rape and harass them on the daily!

And this is one of the causes of racism, if not out and out racist itself. ☝Do non-English men of various skin shades who attack, rape and harass get a free pass in your world because they are not white English men? Btw, there are laws already in place - they just don't stop some men doing what some men want to do.

JHound · 13/09/2025 16:05

ThreeWordHarpy · 13/09/2025 16:00

Hang on, I just typed out a reply to a post of yours where you say Is this a different version of the book to the one I read?

have you read it or not?

People not being able to identify sarcasm on a British site is depressing…

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/09/2025 16:06

Talkinpeace · 13/09/2025 16:05

@Ereshkigalangcleg
Should gun ownership and security laws be changed because it was a political assassination ?

Should the multiple US citizens have their first amendment rights respected ?
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/sep/13/charlie-kirk-shooting-people-fired-social-media

I hadn’t seen that. To be fair it was an incredibly prominent attack, and that’s just how the world works nowadays.

JHound · 13/09/2025 16:07

Talkinpeace · 13/09/2025 16:05

@Ereshkigalangcleg
Should gun ownership and security laws be changed because it was a political assassination ?

Should the multiple US citizens have their first amendment rights respected ?
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/sep/13/charlie-kirk-shooting-people-fired-social-media

Why are people labelling this a political assassination?

He was not a politician, he was a Podcast bro.

Namelessnelly · 13/09/2025 16:07

PrinnyPree · 13/09/2025 15:40

I actually think the anti trans issue has become so ingrained and polarising that some women will literally support the most anti abortion, trad wife, alt right misogynists against their own interests as long as there are trans people who get their rights taken away too.

I mean most women who fear trans people have never even really met one in person but they would side with the most vile misogynistic men on the planet (who most of us have encountered in some form) over the issue. These men really have managed to scapegoat trans women for actual male violence and got some of us to support our own oppressors.

I actually find it quite terrifying.

Edited

Met one, lived with one, was abused by one. He was a misogynistic male who got off on bullying women. He blamed women for male violence. So tell me again why I should give up my sex based rights for him?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/09/2025 16:08

Also don’t many on the left say “freedom of speech isn’t freedom from consequences” when it’s someone they don’t agree with @Talkinpeace?

FlirtsWithRhinos · 13/09/2025 16:08

StormyPotatoes · 13/09/2025 15:58

I don’t have much of an opinion on the views of CK, considering I hadn’t heard of him before the shooting. I am of the opinion that being shot for debating perfectly legal opinions (even if they may be unsavoury) is abhorrent. I’m not that’s throwing support to any ‘anti-women’ ideals.

And I’m beginning to think that there aren’t any public figures that are 100% pro-women. On the one hand we have restrictions over our reproductive rights, women being silenced, literally hidden away from public view, removed from jobs, not aloud to speak in public, but spotted next to an open window… on the other side our we’ve had our meaning of women re-framed to include men, rending our sex (and therefore sex based rights) meaningless, the rise of violent dangerous porn and abuse during sex since as common-place, run of the mill and the rent-a-womb surrogacy which particularly targets poor women.

I’m minded of that Dworkin quote: The difference between left-wing and right-wing when it comes to women is only about where exactly on our necks their boots should be placed. To right-wing men, we are private property. To left-wing men, we are public property. In either case, we are not considered to be humans. We are things.

Yes, this.

I feel on the one side we have the explict "We'll have laws that say we can treat you worse and control you because of the type of body you have" and on the other we have the implicit "we'll condemn the symptoms of sexism and misogyny but we'll never admit or address the structural reasons it happens and who it happens to".

Both ultimately preserve the social power of men over women, from which stems the cultural, financial, political and personal advatanges men have over women.

The explcit is worse of course, but that doesn’t make the implicit the good side, just the less bad one.

StormyPotatoes · 13/09/2025 16:08

JHound · 13/09/2025 16:05

People not being able to identify sarcasm on a British site is depressing…

It’s very hard to read that as sarcasm if you were unaware of the passages written about pre-Gilead life. You did ask FKAT if it was a different version of the book you were reading (was it an abridged version, or maybe one with just pictures?).

Namelessnelly · 13/09/2025 16:08

Wilfulignoranceabounds · 13/09/2025 16:04

I’m guessing that would be a ‘no’, 😂

If you read the thread you’ll see I answered this. Ooops. Maybe reading is not your strong point

JHound · 13/09/2025 16:11

StormyPotatoes · 13/09/2025 16:08

It’s very hard to read that as sarcasm if you were unaware of the passages written about pre-Gilead life. You did ask FKAT if it was a different version of the book you were reading (was it an abridged version, or maybe one with just pictures?).

Ok.

spoonbillstretford · 13/09/2025 16:13

Reform also said would restrict access to abortions. They are a fucking nasty piece of work, particularly around women's rights.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 13/09/2025 16:13

@FellowSuffereroftheAbsurd you made some good points but it's disingenuous to say we don't know who put the Bible (new or old Testament) together. It was a very heavily male dominated society with presumably a difference in male and female literacy and governance by males, so it's really not a stretch to assume that it was males who assembled the Bible in its current form.

megachocs7 · 13/09/2025 16:15

LillyPJ · 13/09/2025 15:36

'For the most he talked sense.' I'd love to see your evidence for that. Much of what he said was racist and misogynistic nonsense.

far from it! You lot just see what you want to see.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 13/09/2025 16:15

JHound · 13/09/2025 15:51

No I have not seen “open celebration”. I have seen mockery but as Kirk has also mocked deaths (and even attacks) of those he dislikes I cannot bring myself to care. All part of the same cesspool. He contributed to that same culture that would laugh at his death.

Fair enough. When you said that comment was "hysterical" you weren't aware this was actually happening. Now you are.

evelynevelyn · 13/09/2025 16:15

ForgetMeNotRose · 13/09/2025 15:17

Well that's depressing. Yes, I guess it can come down to caring about getting the best tax deals to grow your personal wealth more than than the safety, dignity and rights of half of the population...

Isn’t that quite close to saying it’s men’s job to worry about the family and the finances (unless you are saying no one should), while women must put others first?

Phatgurslyms · 13/09/2025 16:18

Minkton · 13/09/2025 13:20

It might be because women think the alternative is air heads who think men might be women if they wear lippie.

This is not an intelligent response. Do you have a serious answer to
op’s question?

TooBigForMyBoots · 13/09/2025 16:20

UserUserUser12 · 13/09/2025 15:37

It really doesn’t. I’m gender critical but I’m not stupid enough to think that one view means I should align myself to the far right.

Exactly.

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