To think disruptive behaviour in schools is out of hand?

[Absentosaur]

‘Children at state schools are almost three times more likely to have their lessons disrupted by poor behaviour than their privately educated peers, a widespread survey of parents has found.’

https://archive.md/HMGtJ accessible link to article .

18% 16-18yr olds go to private school, probably for this reason a lot of the time.

Do we expect the government to do something about it, particularly given they have closed the private school doors to many? What could they be doing to improve the worst state schools??

I can imagine. Shame it’s impossible to accomplish.

I have a sen child too. Which is why they needed private school as they could cope with the screeching rampant chaos of the state secondary. She can behave wonderfully. It’s the crazy, screeching chair throwers that shouldn’t be included.

It is an article in the times.

Is that ‘right wing’?

The archive link to the article is on my OP.

I once read that way back when the leaving age was 12 it was actually age 12 OR if a child had passed Standard 5 (Year 7 in new money).
Many boys apparently would work extra hard to pass early so they could leave.
I don't know how big amounts of children that actually was though.

Isnt this why classes are streamed in state school? I remember in my high school days all the disruptive ones were clumped together in third year. I know DS found it got a lot easier when he hit third year and they were filtered by ability.

What are your secondary school options?

What caused this attitude? Covid maybe?

There need to be tougher sanctions for the persistent offenders (not those with SEND). Mine go to a pretty good secondary in a pretty nice area. There are still some feral kids and I often seethe about how their selfishness is disrupting my DCs education. How dare they?! Overwhelmingly it tends to be boys and I think there’s a really misogynistic approach taken to punishments - boys will be boys and all that. I’m not backwards at coming forwards when I think this needs to be pointed out to the school.

I hate the Michaela ethos. I know for me it would have caused massive anxiety and I'd have constantly been in trouble for things that I now know were caused by ADHD. I wasn't disruptive but I was distractable and forgetful. My daughter would also find it extremely anxiety inducing for different reasons.

However, I also think that children who want to learn shouldn't have that ruined by children who don't.

Maybe every catchment needs a Michaela style school and a more relaxed school. If you demonstrate through primary school you can't behave yourself at a relaxed school, you get sent to the Michaela style school.

This isnt fair on the kids that want to be there but struggle academically though. My brother was put in one of these classes because he had dyslexia which wasnt diagnosed. He failed miserably at school but excelled once at college and he was given the chance

They are publicly funded and can’t select out anybody because it’s their local authority that sets the rules. If parents of SEND children don’t choose it I can only imagine Wembley is offering a better alternative provision in another school. Michaela has to take SEND students with the school named in their EHCP as first priority, according to their admissions policy. Then it is looked after children and siblings - very much in line with all state funded admissions policies.

I am also surprised that nobody has squeaked up and said that they weren’t allowed to send their child there if Michaela is breaking the rules.

Disruptive behaviour is often associate with SEN, but I just want to say this is not always the case…

my son is autistic and is likely one of the best behaved students in his school - he just tests me at home 😂

in my daughters class there have been quite a few children who are very disruptive, some of which don’t have Sen, they just have anger issues and don’t like being told what to by teachers. My daughter has some degree of SEN, mainly academic and speech issues but she goes under the radar as she’s not causing a fuss in the class, she’s no problem to the teachers but this is causing her crippling anxiety levels that the school refuses to to acknowledge as she seems fine there….

Well they won't learn at school will they if they are pissballing about. State schools tend to pander to the badly behaved and expect the well behaved kids to suffer

When I was teaching I used to occasionally fantasise about a drill sergeant showing up in my classroom and removing the worst behaving students and bringing them back after an hour of drill practise in the rain. I still quite like the idea, I don't think there's many children who couldn't rein in their desire to shout, swear, throw things and cause chaos if they knew the instant consequence was push-ups and marching on the playground. How much can it cost to get an ex-soldier who doesn't much like children to patrol the corridors and collect naughty children 30 hours a week? I bet they'd only have to take most of them out once.

I jest. Sort of.

Yes. When the quiet well behaved kid has to sit next to the class disruptor 😡

I also think that people severely overestimate how many people out there in the general public are willing or would be willing to to work with disruptive children, aggressive children, children who hurt you, children with a high level of need, children who are unable to regulate emotionally and psychologically, work with difficult families, work in childrens mental health etc.

In the medical and psychology fields, very few professionals want to work in child (or even adult) mental health comparatively to other fields. There a very few physicists or historians or mathematicians out there that want to work teaching physics or history or maths to agressive, disruptive or disrespectful kids.

It's admirable that people work in such roles but it's all very well and good saying more SEND provision needs to be built, children need more CAHMS support, there needs to be more provision for disruptive or dangerous children etc. but who's going to work all these jobs?! We have a severe teacher shortage as it is and that's just for mainstream children.

There's not many professions other than teaching and learning support where you can be hit and abused by someone, blamed for it, and then subjected to the same person the next day.

@Absentosaur

Times is conservative! You won’t find an article like that in the Guardian!!

I have, and I appreciate the job satisfaction for some teachers working in PRUs. I also know someone who has left teaching as a result of working in a PRU. However, PRUs are for the hardest to reach pupils. What you are suggesting is more far-reaching - 1,000s of pupils segregated because they disrupt lessons. Schools like Michaela in London and Mercia in Sheffield, controversial though they are, have implemented behaviour policies which successfully nip poor behaviour in the bud. The solution to low-level disruption lies not in creating new schools, but improving the ones we have.

Hard agree, but schools seem unwilling to nip poor behaviour in the bud. I think they see it as suffocating a child’s freedom of expression or some such nonsense.

This is spot on. I mentioned on the high school toilet thread about a shift in attitudes. Things have definitely changed in the last five years.

Many secondary schools have adopted that approach, but for a lot of pupils, it would cause massive anxiety. I went to a fairly strict private school but because behaviour was good at all times and any serious incidents resulted in expulsion, there was no need for draconian, terrifying policies of instant detentions for looking out of the window and talking in the corridor, or for reciting poetry at lunch or any of that.

There should be non-private options for pupils who can behave well without needing constant micromanagement.

Sure, send the ones who can't to a super strict school, but why should the good kids have to go to school in prison like conditions because of the disruptive ones?

I think there has been a massive shift over the past decade or so, where schools jump to label and diagnose children - rather than address the support in place.

Schools prefer to say there is an issue with this child rather than there is an issue with the environment and the support that we are giving a child.

I’m all for a diagnosis if it leads to positive outcomes and a full understanding of a child’s individual needs, but an under resourced system means we can’t cope.

Schools should always adopt the social model of disability rather than the medical model of disability.

We point the finger of blame at the child and the parent and that is wrong. If society is shifting then schools need to shift too and they should serve their local community.

Exactly, but the 'how dare you!! Think of the children!!' Posts are quick on this subject. But they're never clear on why the only children who should be considered are the feral, violent, disruptive ones! All other children? Mehh... collateral damage...

Where are the disruptive children being taught while the school helps them? In the mainstream classroom?