To think disruptive behaviour in schools is out of hand?

[Absentosaur]

‘Children at state schools are almost three times more likely to have their lessons disrupted by poor behaviour than their privately educated peers, a widespread survey of parents has found.’

https://archive.md/HMGtJ accessible link to article .

18% 16-18yr olds go to private school, probably for this reason a lot of the time.

Do we expect the government to do something about it, particularly given they have closed the private school doors to many? What could they be doing to improve the worst state schools??

I do agree. But I’m also realistic. Look around. It’s just not going to happen. Therefore I’m afraid that until it does (which is never),

‘Schools like Michaela are not really the solution because they are not really able to address the issue but instead need to work around it - by having almost prison like rules.’

Its sad but unless the government suddenly find miraculous amounts of funding to pay for hundreds more teachers and specialist schools, it’s the only way.

I would definitely support that.

Where has anyone said that?

My DC needs additional support at his school and gets it. The difference is he is not disruptive or badly behaved. Why, if he was, should the rest of the class have their education ruined?

I would 100% back the school to find alternatives that suit him if that was the case.

I worked in the primary school my son attended and this is why I now home educate. I watched him be evacuated from class multiple times, he witnessed police have to come in to restrain a pupil who absolutely destroyed a classroom and couldn't be talked down. On a daily basis, every lesson was dealing with constant low level disruption, the kind that eventually not only affects your learning but grinds you down. None of us would accept working every day with numerous colleagues shouting out constantly that your boss is a useless c*nt, or deciding that today you will be the one hit on the head constantly (yet you're told to just ignore it!) or find it funny to spend every lesson just switching the lights on and off and you be expected to not only concentrate but produce your best work- these are just a few examples.
My boy left six years of primary, more than 3 years behind, despite his effort being reported as excellent. Now I'm not saying the disruption was entirely to blame but it certainly didn't help!
But I am going to say that I felt nothing but sympathy for the main protagonists (some of the kids were just cocky kids who needed a bit of discipline) but I watched others spend most of their days stalking the corridors looking like caged animals. They got nothing from being there and the level of stress and frustration was palpable. Some of this was unmet needs and some was just needing something different. There should be more special schools for learning and SEMH issues but also more vocational style schools, where less academic pupils can go and learn practical skills - they'd get so much more from that environment than being forced into an institution that causes this level of stress.
We also need to accept home education and independent schools as good alternatives to the state offering, instead of the current level of suspicion or envy - parents need to be able to try and do what's best for their child. Until there is a massive overhaul of the education system, these are currently the only alternatives which is thoroughly unacceptable for those who can't access these options.

Privately funded ??? Eh? Who said anything about that?

That’s great idea. The government have promised new technical colleges. But they’re only in 10 locations and are 16+ I think

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/40000-people-to-get-skills-in-new-technical-excellence-colleges

Friends Dd was at private school late diagnosed autistic and was displaying challenging behaviour. Her feet didn’t touch the ground - expulsion.

As the mother of conscientious “good” girls half of me felt sympathetic to my friend but then again sympathy runs out when your own child’s education is persistently disrupted…

I know why they say they’re successful. I have suspicions about why else they’re successful that they’re much less forthcoming about. But I think there’s a place in the education system for a few schools like Michaela, for parents and children who want that. I don’t think applying the Michaela model across the whole secondary system would work and I don’t think they can be held up as the answer to behavioural problems in schools.

This is why I'm already saving up to hopefully send my son to a private secondary. I'm just not putting him through what I went through in a state school in a deprived area. It was hopeless, pointless being at school, when you couldn't possibly learn because of the chaos all around you. Children deserve better and unfortunately I think schools have their hands tied in so many ways and are often simply unable to exclude children when it's clear nothing helps to improve their behaviour, so everyone else in the class drowns on the sinking ship too. It's a national shame.

The issue is that the alternative the school talks about is in 95% of cases imaginary. Those children fail. If for example you died and your child exhibited difficult behaviour (which would be considered expected in those circumstances) would you think it is fair enough that they fail or would you expect the school to support them? Lots of children go through periods of difficult behaviour so this should be something that school find ways to manage rather than it become someone else's problem.

School diversity school diversity school diversity. We need to stop accepting the lie that huge schools can meet all needs because we are all so neurodiversity/SEN friendly these days. Labour don’t get this, everyone is closing special schools, and we need more and different types of them not less.

@Donewithschoolruns my disabled dc is very well supported by her excellent private school, although of course I accept your point in general.

@BigBillythat’s not what was suggested though is it.

I lost your message and meant to reply earlier. I’m so sorry to hear about your son being so unhappy. I hope over time he starts to feel more at home in his bigger school. It’s a shock from primary to secondary at the best of times. x

Because a mainstream school that excludes lots of DC wouldn't be officially recognised as a good school.

I have taught in state schools for years and I think SEND children get a very bad press on here. The vast majority of SEND children are perfectly well behaved and like a quiet calm environment. They suffer enormously in hectic, loud environments with lots of bad behaviour. That is why the parents who can afford it move them over to private schools.

Ideally, we would have smaller schools and a variety of different styles of schools where parents had more say in the school their children went to. I realise that would expensive and hard to do in rural areas but I think the current system is such a lottery and too many children are not getting the education they deserve.

I have suspicions about why else they’re successful that they’re much less forthcoming about.

What suspicions do you have?

Sorry I totally agree lots of private schools have fantastic SEN provision and are fantastic in general. I take issues with schools (mainstream or private) considering failing DC as a positive rather than an serious issue they need to address.

I’ve had this experience previously with my DC in Scottish primary.
They remove the full rest of the class and leave the troublemaker in the classroom.
its so disruptive and was happening almost daily one year of their primary.
I was so glad when the next year the classes were mixed up and that child was no longer in their class.
I had complained frequently as the child was throwing things and punching my DC ( and many others ) , other parents complained too but nothing happened.
My DC actually has a faint scar from being scratched so deeply from that particular child.
The answer has to be an end to inclusion policies - if these children cannot cope with education and lash out at other kids , they need to be taught separately.

The school does support the kids. But there is only so much support they can give. How long should the school keep trying? When they have so many other children that also needs support

That they select out a lot of difficult, high needs or SEND children by having the rules and reputation they have.

There's currently the UTCs (University Technical Colleges) which are mostly from 14 (Year 10) but I know at least one starts in Year 9.
Unfortunately they are badly promoted going by the amount of people on Mumsnet that have never heard of them.

Well it is a mainstream school. And it is considered a good one and its not lots of children, its just the ones that continue to cause issues for the school and the other children there.

This is my exact view. I am a teacher
and spend 90% of my time dealing with 2 disruptive children. When did it become ok to to ruin the education of the many to cater to the few?

You said in your initial post that so many kids are shown the door. If that is the truth then if they are ofsted rated I would expect this to be flagged as a major issue in their next expection.

It also makes me furious how the government penalises schools and headteachers severely for excluding pupils that cause a living hell for students and teachers. It's blackmail really. A headteacher is unable to protect and keep his or her staff and students safe because of it. Eye-watering fines (10k-20k for each child excluded) that schools can't afford plus a significant and punitive downgrade in Oftsed rating holds a figurative gun to most headteachers heads. They're all sick of it.

In our school, the Local Authority states a student has to have been temporarily excluded in excess of 40 times before they can be considered for permanent expulsion, and then you have governors to get through and all sorts of challenges surrounding "inclusion/trauma/all behaviour is communication" rhetoric. I'm so glad to see the sentiment on Mumsnet is starting to change and people are speaking out. Everyone is fed up.