To think disruptive behaviour in schools is out of hand?

[Absentosaur]

‘Children at state schools are almost three times more likely to have their lessons disrupted by poor behaviour than their privately educated peers, a widespread survey of parents has found.’

https://archive.md/HMGtJ accessible link to article .

18% 16-18yr olds go to private school, probably for this reason a lot of the time.

Do we expect the government to do something about it, particularly given they have closed the private school doors to many? What could they be doing to improve the worst state schools??

I've said the same many times on MN that instead of kids moving through school according to age, it should be according to ability, with kids who havn't progressed for whatever reason, being "held back" to keep being taught the basics.

It's wasting everyone's time to keep pushing kids through the years, trying to teach them more complicated things/subjects when they're barely numerate/literate. Really no point trying to teach Shakespeare to a kid that struggles with a "Janet and John" book (or modern equivalent of starter book). Likewise no point trying to teach Physics of Maths equations to kids who can't add/subject anything more than single numbers and who doesn't know their times tables/prime numbers nor how to multiple/divide. By pushing them through, it causes them to lose confidence, lose interest, become disengaged thus fuelling disruption etc.

The messege to get through to who? Those of you that think this is a good idea when the crime you desperately desire impacts your family and community?

The argument against is always about age and social needs. But if a child has to repeat a year more than once, they likely have an educational need and would benefit from a specialist education.

If repeating a year more than once was the key admission criteria for specialist, it would save a ton of grief for parents of SEN children (and councils if they dared to admit it) leaving only physical disabilities, which mainstream schools should cater for anyway, and sensory disabilities (hearing/sight) which are fairly straightforward in determining need (compared to cognitive need - not saying it's easy for any).

The problem I forsee would be when you head towards GCSE level where you may have a child who excels in maths/science but struggles with literacy. Where should they go? But...if the literacy needs were addressed when young because they'd had to repeat y1, would that happen?

But there would be less crime?

There are plenty of parents who want good outcomes and foster a good attitude with their dc (those with SEN included).

The gov seems intent on putting up barriers to that so we must all be disrupted.

You think kicking kids out onto the streets with no education would lead to less crime? How so?

Because they'd be fasttracked to jail. And the younger kids would see what messing about at school leads to.

You can only be sent to jail if you commit a crime first. Which more serious crimials would you release early to make space for these children in jail? And once they are released with a criminal record then what? More crimes. They'd need to commit some pretty serious crimes to be given lengthy prison sentences initially.

Why do you assume they'd turn to crime?
Many teenagers misbehave in school because they simply don't want to be there.
They are bored, frustrated and full of hormonal energy.
But if they were allowed to leave and work/volunteer doing something they actually want to do their behaviour would change.

Well it's pretty clear our current "softly softly" approach to poor behaviour, disruption, etc isn't working either, given the sheer number of kids leaving school innumerate and illiterate, who already go into a life of idleness or crime. We've tried inclusivity and being soft for the past few decades. It's not worked, so how about we change things?

I don't for a second believe it would deter younger kids. The messege would be 'misbehave and you can leave' which I'm sure many would jump at the chance.

Imagine if your child was one of the ones who had SEND or a traumatized life that made it harder for them to focus in a traditional classroom, would you want them to be slung in the sin bin with the other bad kids?

I agree school culture needs to change. But not in a way that we force masses of children into a life of crime, that isn't good for society. These people still go on to have children and the problem would get worse.

Or we could bring back more manuals/skills in schools so that they'd be more interested, such as better training in the trades, car mechanics, etc. alongside the basics of life skills such as numeracy, literacy, etc. You know, like we used to do before the "one size fits all" (but doesn't) comp system.

What country is this?

There needs to be some fear factor to make badly behaved kids and lax parents fall into line. This nicey nicey approach by schools doesn’t work.

If I was in charge persistent bad / disruptive behaviour would mean the badly behaved NT pupils are kept within the school but taught separately by AI robots. Leaving the decent kids to learn in peace with the teachers. If the badly behaved ones decide to fall into line they can be allowed back into general population.

@OonaStubbs I remember reading something years ago (or it might have been a TV documentary) about teens that were in Young Offenders Institutes.
They would be required to do some schooling (usually just English and Maths) but they would also be taught vocational skills. I remember that a group of the boys were taught woodwork and made benches and tables for the outside exercise area.
Basically they were doing something that they could see the actual end goal (need a bench...build a bench).
What I remember most is several of the boys said if they had been given the opportunity to do these types of things at school they wouldn't have messed around in school (got expelled/stopped attending) and ended up on a criminal path.

Exactly!

Breaks my heart for the decent kids who want to learn who are prevented from doing so by the cretins.

At my school the working class deputy head would take the non academic lads out of French and taught them to be tradies. They did jobs round the school, learnt how to behave in site, make the tea etc they even dug a swimming pool. They loved it. Wouldn’t be allowed now.

They do that in Scotland. DS is dyslexic and struggles with some subjects ( great at physics/ maths/art) and has chosen to go to college twice a week and does a practical course, he’s doing professional cookery as wants to be a chef but can also do hairdressing, car mechanics, electrical engineering type stuff. He’s 15 so in three years will have cheffing qualifications plus academic ones.

Nail on the head. Since the scrapping of the grammar/sec mod system, the emphasis has been on giving the academic/grammar style of education to all, and it's just not worked. Likewise Blair's crazy nonsense goals of 50% of 18 year olds going to University. We've had decades of looking down on manual skills and trades, which is what a lot of pupils actually want to do and would be happy doing. We're really not going to get far with the compulsory (in some schools) of teaching a modern foreign language to GCSE level with kids who can barely read/write in English!

I've said it 1000 times but what we need is to scrap comprehensive system and create more choice:

• vocational schools for 14+
• technical schools for 14+
• more grammars ie make them more accessible
• more independent schools
• more free schools

Scrap compulsory education age.
Make compulsory single education up until end Yr 8 ie core curriculum then for Yr 9 pupils can choose from the list of settings above for the best fit for them. They then follow that pathway until 18 but can change pathway at 16 or choose to leave education at 16.

Agreed. And in fact the manual skills / labour usually cannot be replaced by AI. So these skills - plumbing, joinery, electrician etc etc will be future proof and desirable.

Yup, that sounds exactly like the kind of things they should be doing. In my old school, the worst of the disruptive kids did "outdoor pursuits" which was a mix of sports like cross country, with hill walking, canoeing, etc - I think the idea was to get them out to let of steam doing physical things. The main problem was that it wasn't offered to anyone else, so it was a kind of reward for poor behaviour.