To think disruptive behaviour in schools is out of hand?

[Absentosaur]

‘Children at state schools are almost three times more likely to have their lessons disrupted by poor behaviour than their privately educated peers, a widespread survey of parents has found.’

https://archive.md/HMGtJ accessible link to article .

18% 16-18yr olds go to private school, probably for this reason a lot of the time.

Do we expect the government to do something about it, particularly given they have closed the private school doors to many? What could they be doing to improve the worst state schools??

No you were the one who started throwing out insults to individuals. Criticising a paper/source is fine but you were the one to first throw out the insinuation of the right not being clever enough to understand something.
Then the comment above.

You can't simplify it into "right approves of independent schools and the left doesn't" because that's the most simplified argument ever, its so much more complex than that and people can have a spectrum of views you know. Just because you align more to the left doesn't mean you also can't send your DC to independent schools
You are using an incredibly reductive viewpoint and argument. No-one in real life has such binary views.

@twistyizzy

Especially when some of the sentiments here sound like Reform UK education policy:

Hand private schools a tax relief of 20 per cent, with no VAT on fees. If parents can “afford to pay a bit more, we should incentivise them to choose independent schools” as it will “significantly ease pressure on state schools and improve education for all”.

Double the number of pupil referral units so that schools “can function safely”, with “best practice spread across PRUs”. This is pledged under the header “permanent exclusions for violent and disruptive students”.

This issue goes way back to the point where so many schools which were specifically set up and staffed to support children with behavioural issues were closed down.

We certainly aren’t in an economic climate now where taxpayers can fund opening new schools as PP suggested. Inclusion really works brilliantly for some children, but for many it’s been a total disaster.

@Lucy5678

Fair enough. It’s more the Reform UK voters who argue in that way.

Yes. And instead of introducing the start of significant remedial change, we’ve got tax on children’s education and breakfast clubs that schools can’t afford.

Perhaps grammar schools need to be reintroduced nationwide? And specialist schools available to those that need them. And Technical / non academic schools..

Trying to integrate every child into one size fits all, obviously works well for no one. it’s a social / financial experiment which from the feedback from parents, it’s not working. Thousands of children are being failed by the system. 🥺

Well adding VAT has certainly proven to add to the cost to state! To the tune of well over 16K+ children. That has so far cost the taxpayer over £119million this year alone with no additional money given to schools to cover the cost. The cost is more if any of those children are SEND.
Are you aware that many countries actually offer tax incentives to parents who send their children to independent schools? Because they understand that independent schools do relieve the cost to the taxpayer and means that there are more resources for children in state schools? Because the parents who choose independent schools are still paying their taxes to support state schools.
Just because a policy reminds you of Reform, doesn't mean it's a bad policy! Especially when state schools + SEND is on absolute crisis.

Do we expect the government to do something about it, particularly given they have closed the private school doors to many?
I don't think the government have more of a responsibility to do something about behaviour than the tories did because some ex private pupils can't afford private any more. It was just as important before that. The majority of pupils were in state when the tories were in power and they mattered just as much as ex private kids.

Agreed.

Any government has a responsibility for Education.

Actually legally the government has an obligation and responsibility for ALL children, no matter what sector they are in. See also home schooled children

But how do you expect hard pressed teachers to spend time guiding every pupil who is tempted to mess about?

Parents should guide. In my home that meant setting clear expectations that any messing about would result in consequences at home. It starts with small things. When the teacher says put your pencil down, you put your pencil down. You line up nicely and stop talking. You put your coat on when told to. NT DC should have no problem understanding that if they are minded to ignore the teacher it will be dealt with at home. My DS2 in particular needed to learn those lessons at 4/5/6, but I saw it as my responsibility to drum them into him.

And most importantly, you know that if you misbehave at school, your parents will back the teachers 100% and you'll get consequences at home too!

I don't think it's only the fault of parents that the relationship between school and home has broken down though. Policies around things like attendance, uniform and healthy eating, enforced by the government with no understanding of the individual circumstances of each school, have also driven a wedge between teachers and parents.

It’s probably already been said (I’ve not read the entire thread) but having been to school in the 90s I think this is correct.

The problem is, up until the 80s teachers kept order with literal fear and violence (caning was only abolished in UK schools in 1987).

In the 90s we had teachers who were still part of the caning generation who weren’t afraid to stamp their authority.

Now we have a generation of “nice”
and “respectful” teachers who “set an example” of what behavior they would like
to see from children, and “try to
understand” the causes of bad behaviour.

Unfortunately the children walk all
over them because there is no real consequence for misbehaving, being rude, hitting teacher etc.

Thats certainly the case at my DD and DS primary school, which is in a “not rich but not total hellhole poor” area.

What I’m trying to say is that having got rid of the fear factor, nothing has replaced it to instill respect and good behavior.

And although I could never afford to
privaty educate my children, I agree with the proposal to remove the VAT and give a tax break to those who privately educate their children.

Penalising the well off was just pure envy and I know at least one private school in my area that has closed and number of kids have now come to my kids school increasing the numbers and putting more
pressure on.

Taking those kids out and back into the private sector would mean smaller class
sizes for my kids. Win-win.

But also parental engagement with education. If i got any inkling that DD was pratting around at school (let alone being purposely disruptive) would come down on here like a ton of bricks. Education is my hill to die on and doing well is a non-negotiable in our house.
My SIL however regularly takes kids out of school during term time and in fact her middle child missed her first 2 days at college due to being in Spain. She then missed out on that transition and has been on a back foot with friendships and settling in etc. She also hardly ever attends parents evenings or engages with the schools.

Expectations of behaviour in school are created and maintained at home.

I think there is an element of managing expectations too though. From a developmental perspective, a 4 year old that would sit quietly for 6 hours is a red flag. We are a generation of people pleasers. Maybe schoos needs to move in line with understanding of child development like in other countries, where there are better outcomes for children than there are here.

I don't think OP really wants to discuss this though. I think OP is looking for confirmation that a mediocre private education is better than an education in any state school, because she has been led to believe that all mainstream schools are awful places. And her private education hasn't led to a career where she can comfortably afford the VAT rises.

Yep, we didn’t need even more students in state. That was a poor policy which won’t help anyone.

I think this would be part of the solution, but might suggest it could be refined by allocating every child an education budget to be spent as the parents deem in the best interest of each individual child, set at a national per capita based on average education spend. This "voucher" could be "spent" on any approved educational setting, from elite private (for which the parents would pay the additional cost) to SEN provision.

Alternatively, allow some % of private personal provision for health or education to be offset against income tax in recognition that the state is not paying for those that opt out.

It's such a difficult situation. Setting seems to help massively if your child is academic.You can have completely opposite experience of the same school to someone with a less academic child. The worst scenario is a well behaved child with limited abilities that ends up in set 6/7 of the average state school.

Yes I 100% support vouchers. That wat home schoolers could also access them. That would be a completely "fair" model and is actually what some countries already do.
The UK (as an entity) sadly just doesn't value education

I definitely consider myself politically left of centre but these policies strike me as fairly sensible. If that’s Reform policy (and for the record I will never vote for Reform) then this speaks to the vacuum of leadership in the current government.

I am not a teacher but I think it’s increasingly clear that the policies of inclusion are failing all pupils.

The innate weakness of my suggestion is that really excellent SEN provision can cost £100k pa, and there would be screams of outrage if a parental top-up contribution was required.

You would have to exempt SEND provision from parental top up. Easy to do and completely justifiable, after all it wouldn't be an extra cost to the taxpayer as they are already footing the bill.

‘I think OP is looking for confirmation that a mediocre private education is better than an education in any state school, because she has been led to believe that all mainstream schools are awful places. And her private education hasn't led to a career where she can comfortably afford the VAT rises.’

A puzzling attempt at a summary of what I’m ’looking for’. You’re projecting and judging me by your standards, and you couldn’t be more wrong. Bizarre really but there we are.

I’ll deconstruct your points step by step, it’s easier:

‘Looking for confirmation that a mediocre private education is better than an education in any state school’ - what? This sentence has no grounds whatsoever in anything I’ve said. Obv a good school is a good school, grammar, comp, academy, or independent. Not one of those is automatically better than any other. But it would be stupid to think that eg. A selective grammar school would have the same results as a non selective school (state or private).

‘because she has been led to believe that all mainstream schools are awful places’ - again This sentence has no grounds whatsoever in anything I’ve said. Some schools are awful, some schools are not awful. This isn’t always dependent on the ‘type’ of school but the data in my OP attachment tells us that kids behaviour at some types of school, is worse than others. There, fixed it for you.

‘And her private education hasn't led to a career where she can comfortably afford the VAT rises.’ 🤣🤣🙈 You have no idea of my education or income. So although my initial thoughts were not to bother responding to this, actually I will because your attitude is an exemplary demonstration of people’s failure to comprehend information effectively, and subsequently jump head first into conclusions that fit their own cognitive bias.

I did not have a private education. I went to a very shit comprehensive school. That finished at age 16. Then I went to a shit local college. Despite these factors and probably because I have great parents, I still went to university (actually 2), and have done quite well.

I have 2 children in private school (I’d have sent them to a good state school had we had one nearby). Although I’m strongly against the VAT on education, the financial impact on me has been minimal / barely noticeable (sorry to disappoint you).

The awful school I went to has strongly influenced my thoughts on education. Most people in my year didn’t go to uni. The fact things seem (are?) worse today than then, is shocking.

Are we clear now?