To be annoyed that my employer won’t let me go part time?

[Topoftheroof]

I currently work full time 5 days a week. I made a flexible working request to go part time to 2 days a week because of personal circumstances (family circumstances) but it was declined. I’m annoyed though because there are other people (2 other people) working in the company only 2 days a week so it’s not unheard of. But they won’t consider it because I’m a head of department (not in a school and nothing to do with education or academics) and they also won’t give me another role in the company either which can be 2 days a week. I feel like I could cry with stress, I can’t afford to not work at all but can’t work 5 days a week at the moment either due to circumstances. I explained on my request that part time 2 days a week might not be permanent but they still declined the request. Both my boss and the managing director are always moaning that they “dread the day” I leave because “there’s no one in the business as good as” me so it’s baffling to me that they wouldn’t approve the 2 days a week knowing that I can’t work full time 5 days a week at the moment but then at the same time always say that they don’t want me to leave the company and would do anything to stop me leaving. I haven’t decided if I should appeal it yet or not, I don’t know what to do. I’m just really upset and have been crying about it because I can’t afford not to work at all and can’t do full time at the moment either. I’m also very annoyed with my employer too for rejecting the request. AIBU to be annoyed with my employer about this?

Solo parenting 3 children and managing a full time job is a massive commitment - well done OP. I'm not surprised you're stressed and pulled all ways.

Taking on a 6 month old baby as well (from presumably challenging circumstances) could seriously blow everything apart and like others, I'm surprised that social services would sanction this? You're successfully caring for 3 children alone - and they will need an immense amount of your time. This baby will have massive needs - how on earth can you meet them - even if you're able to work part time?

I'd urge you to seek out someone to talk to professionally about this. I mean this kindly but this reads as if some of the decisions you feel you must make are not good ones - for you or for the children.

Exactly. So many people have made this point now, but OP is ignoring the issue. How can you do a five day job in two days? Why would they then pay you over five days if you proved you could do everything in two days.

This is my previous comment from yesterday where I explained what I meant when I said that I thought I could do my job in 2 days.

I’ve answered it earlier in the thread

This, and even if they are in the same role them being in 2 days could be the reason you can't be. Flexible working agreements don't set a precedent.
I'd be very surprised if a HoD re could be done in 2 days though, that seems unrealistic to me.

I doubt that any head of department role can be effectively carried out in 2 days a week. What if something comes up unexpectedly that needs your attention?

I appreciate you think you could do it in 2 days, but would there really be zero business impact? A customer (internal or external, e.g. if you work in accounts and a colleague has a question, or a literal customer if its something like sales) needs to talk urgently on a Thursday, but you're not in till next Tuesday- who does that? A member of your team had a personal emergency on the Friday and needs some support - who does that? There's a HoD meeting about new business strategy on Monday - but you're not there, so who goes, are you expecting a team member to have to step up for no extra pay? The MD needs an update on your department results and you're not there etc etc. You might be right that all your pro active work could squash into 2 days (although it begs the question what on earth have you been doing the other 3) but the reactive responses will be so much slower. That's why 4 days is reasonable, because rarely is it absolutely essential and occurring on the 1 day you're off (when I worked 4 days occasionally it did and I'd swap days around).
You're looking at this purely from your own perspective (understandable) but there is absolutely no way the head of a department can go down from 5 days to 2. The fact you're even thinking that because some other people do 2 days, you should to, is a massive lack of understanding about employment law. In law, even if those 2 people did the exact same job as you, they could still say No on the basis that would be too many people in that role doing 2 days/the business impact would not be reasonable/absorbable. So totally ignore what working pattern other people work, it's not helpful to your argument at all, and will just make you frustrated. Your argument should exclusively focus on the business needs/impact.
I'd suggest negotiating, would 4 work, or some time from home, or a period of unpaid leave/sabbatical?
You also put yourself in a vulnerable position, a FWR results in a perm contractual change, if you can and do complete everything in 2 days, no way would they change it back to 5 at your whim - why would they pay more for the same service? And you'd not be able to force them to, as you'd have signed the change down to 2 days.

Seems like a bad claim unless you want to never work full time again. Because it sounds like a full time position is redundant at this company.

Haha I’d be careful who you say that too … what are you doing for the other 3 days? Getting paid for doing nothing?

Appeal or start looking elsewhere.

Have you looked into what you are entitled to claim money wise if/when you take on the 4th child?
I know of someone in a very similar situation, all be it with older children (2 primary and 1 secondary) and she is recompensed a lot of money for having them. Obviously I don’t know the ins/outs of it but she has often said she doesn’t need to work at all anymore due to the level of money she gets.
I can see why you’d take on the 4th child if directly related to you, rather then put them into the system, however if the long term plan is that they cannot return to their biological parent(s) they would be very adoptable as still very little.
I admire you greatly for stepping in and taking care of them, I hope you can sort the work situation out but I would definitely sit down and go over the numbers to see what you need to do or if taking some sort leave would be more appropriate rather then trying to juggle everything.

One final suggestion @Topoftheroof …

Negotiate going freelance with them for just two days a week. They’ll have no overheads on you (but check IR35 - although as HOP you should have a decent working knowledge of this). Go for a title such as ‘Production Director’ or Consultant HOP.

Make the next LP ready to step up into the full time HOP but on a lower rate (for the title as previously mentioned) if it’s about money.

They’ll run all the budgets, channel / finance chats but you can oversee, train & mentor them. Get a 6 month contract with the prod co.

Gives you the breathing space you need, keeps you in there, and gives you the opportunity to look elsewhere or pick up other days as and when (putting a quick budget together for a development etc).

But - crucially - you have to sell it to them based on your knowledge of the company, how losing you would mean losing that ‘muscle memory’, why you love working there and any other added extras you can think of. Brilliant relationships with channels, really good pastoral care examples, processes you introduced etc etc etc.

Good luck!

Sorry for your situation OP, it sounds really hard.
But honestly, if your job can be done in 2 days instead of 5, something is badly wrong in the company and they should not be paying you to work full time. You may need to look for another job sadly, or a different solution to the family situation.

For a HoD, you don’t seem hugely clued up as to how it works. It’s understandable that you are seeing it from your own emotional perspective, but the employer considers it from a business perspective. It looks like your work has to be managed elsewhere - by other people? - on the days you’re not there, and just because others do it, doesn’t mean it’s applicable to your role. I’m sorry for your circumstances, but your employer isn’t being unreasonable.

I can see how this can be tricky for an employer.

Your work might currently be able to be done in two days, but if it's the type of role that they need someone available at any point within five days, I can understand them rejecting it.

It's not a regular office job where generally the same things happen week in, week out. It fluctuates through busy periods and they need the flexibility of someone that is available whenever they need them. Job sharing might not work because of the fact that it's more difficult to have two people doing the same job on different days. In my work, for example, we have roles that one person has to do the job, so it's not possible for one person to do it for 2 days and then another person pick up where the first person left off.

I feel for you though. They don't want you to leave but can't sort out your role and you can't carry on working (for being a good friend/family member). No good deed goes unpunished, as they say.

Sorry I wasn’t ignoring your comments I promise. I am going to sit down tonight when they are in bed and look at your suggestions and try and work everything out properly and then reply to your comments/suggestions as well as seeing what I can suggest to my MD. I wasn’t ignoring your comments I promise, sorry

Oops! So you are saying you have been spinning two days work over five? I imagine if that is the case there has been more than a hint of sarcasm when they say they don’t know what they would do without you.

I really feel for you, when I went back after my maternity leave I applied to go back 2 days a week, to be honest thinking I’d prefer 3 but we can negotiate? I went to a meeting on site about a month before I was due to go back (this was pre Covid so no Teams or WFH) and the application form hadn’t even left my fingertips when they said no. They even asked me if I wanted them to formally respond to it in a “are you seriously going to actually officially apply for this?!” way.

I got the same fobbing off, the needs of the organisation need to be considered, it’s hard to find someone willing to do a job share these days. It was the NHS and people who I knew who were clinical insisted they couldn’t do that and were astounded that I’d been flat out rejected.

I appealed, I had to appeal to the chief exec, I had 2 weeks to appeal and I was relentless with chasing and pestering HR with what my options were and if I had 2 weeks to appeal how long did they have to respond? Dd is now 10, and I am still to this day waiting to hear the outcome of the appeal. They offered me a temporary phased return of 4 short days a week for 6 weeks (in a different department where I didn’t know the job or the people) and it sort of never got reviewed. Because of budgets and whatever they kept telling me they couldn’t continue to employ me to work there part time and then continue to employ my maternity cover person and so a couple of times I was pushed to apply for a full time job in this “new” department but never did, was constantly told that there wasn’t a job for me if I didn’t. I (it was risky and I was terrified) said they’d have to make me redundant then, or put me back in my old role and get rid of the new person doing it and I’d hand my notice in as soon as the other person was let go. I was a PA so it was just the one person doing that job.

After about 18 months someone I worked with in my “new” department had a baby and when they came back off maternity leave wanted to be part time, we job shared, I finally got a proper contract.

Appeal. Hold your nerve. If it’s causing you as much stress as you say do you need to visit your GP, what’s the sick pay like?

No that’s not what I’m saying.

But who do you expect to do the bits of your job that you’ve decided you don’t want to do? If you think the key parts of your role can be done in two days a week you must accept that there are other parts that you won’t be doing, and that work will need to be covered by someone else. Being brutal, your choice to foster so many children as a single person really isn’t your employer’s responsibility to deal with.

So in essence other people cover the work you’d do on the other 3 days? So they do more work for the same money and you get your way? How is that reasonable or fair?

I was in a similar position requested drop to 3 days work said no it was quite a specialised job and I had evidenced could do it in 3 days as I did it for 6 months after mat leave using accrued annual leave. I simply said ok and left within 2 months they struggled for a long time after to fill the role

If you really cannot cope and need some breathing space, I suggest you have a word with your GP..

Before you do that, gather any evidence/ contracts and have a word with unions / cab to make sure you know the likely outcome should you go long term Ill.

They already have 2 part timers and need you there full time you're either going to have to find a new job, get yourself on UC or suck it up and make it work

They can reject on 3 factors cost too much/arduous to implement, impact to operations, impact to quality.

HoD would never be reduced to 2 days a week kindly. Other junior roles, can, but you're comparing apples to oranges.

I would potentially reapply or appeal on the basis of 3 or 4 days which is more realistic, or less hours per day in current pattern if you want to compromise.

A Flexi request is about your current hours and working pattern. They'd not consider a different role for you.
If you want that apply for internal vacancies and do it that way!

@Topoftheroof - What you are doing in being a kinship carer for four children is absolutely brilliant. I used to work with someone who was doing the same for her brothers children - she took one on and then ended up with three! It is definitely something to be admired.

However, just because it is a kind and altruistic thing to do, doesn't mean that you should be put at a financial disadvantage, so have you checked that you are getting all of the fostering allowances and fees that you are entitled to?

As an absolute minimum you should be getting £170 per week per child in allowances and £165 per week per child in fees (although most LAs pay more than this). That's just under £6k a month for four children and should be tax free.

On top of this you may be able to claim universal credit as fostering allowances are not counted for the purposes of assessing UC claims.

If the LA are not asking you to stop working full time as part of the child's care plan, you are also entitled to free child-care which may increase the hours you are available to work.

Also - do you live in the same LA that have responsibility for the children? If so, check to see if they waive council tax for foster carers - many LAs do. If you don't live in the same LA or your LA doesn't offer it as standard, push for it anyway and check what else you may be able to claim for from them. Remember it would cost them a whole lot more to have to place four children in an external placement than with you and LAs do have some ability to pay additional discretionary expenses, if it means being able to keep the children in Kinship care rather than having to tie up an in-house carer or pay an IFA.

If you are going to go down the SGO route, check whether the LA offers parity and will continue to pay fees and allowances at the same level as the fostering fees and for how long (some LAs are now doing this until the child leaves care or turns 18). While SGO would absolutely be the best thing for the children, don't yield to the pressure to accept it if they won't continue the payments until the children are at least in school full time and you can return to work.

Speak to the Fostering Network and Fosterline and get their advice and support - they will be much better placed that randoms on Mumsnet to advise how to best approach you employer.

Speak to your employer about becoming a Foster Friendly organisation (https://www.thefosteringnetwork.org.uk/get-involved/fostering-friendly-employers/) - they may be willing to offer you some flexibility without having to formally go down to two days a week (shorter days / home working combined with free childcare) or some other flexibility around this