To think the time is coming when a universal basic income is seen as a necessity?

[DoubtfulCat]

AI is replacing a lot of jobs which were previously highly specialised- like translation- as well as entry-level jobs into careers like law. Because the jobs which are hardest to automate seem to be those which are currently either very well paid (like senior managers, politicians, etc) or those at the lowest pay level (like care work, for example) it seems as if more and more people who would once have been gainfully employed will increasingly be competing for a shrinking pool of jobs with half-decent pay, and for those manual jobs. I see a rise in people with no job at all and a huge fall in people earning ‘professional’ salaries and following a reasonable career path. The knock-on would be falling private pension provision, falling savings, rising personal debt, and so on. Increasing hardship and wealth gap between those with and those without.

Do you think that a form of UBI would help to solve that problem?

• more people could work fewer hours each, so more people could have a job which often gives people a purpose in life
• hardship would be mitigated- no-one would be destitute or unable to feed themselves
• people might use their time on creative projects or things that are good for their health and well-being, if they have some breathing space around struggling to survive

Currently in this country (unlike many others), most of our degrees are not vocational. You just do a degree for: 1) the mind expansion; 2) the social and developmental experience; and 3) to prove to potential employers that you are a high-functioning type of person. So I don’t think that will necessarily change, even if the jobs do.

You say that you worry that the interesting jobs are disappearing. How interesting are these jobs, actually? To me, the fun parts of a job are: 1) having a community; 2) the satisfaction of successfully completing a task (any task); 3) earning money to be self-sufficient and hopefully enough to enjoy spending it as well. You can get interested in anything if you’re immersed in it and trying to attain a goal, but mergers and acquisitions and audits and legal contracts and marketing and advertising of random widgets are not that intrinsically interesting to me. It’s being part of a project that makes them interesting. Also, these types of “thinking” jobs allow more autonomy than more procedural ones, which is enjoyable, and they also carry more perks and side benefits, which makes people feel good.

It seems to me that a lot of these characteristics could be transferred to new and different jobs. I don’t know what’s going to happen in the future but I suspect it’s rather a blinkered approach to assume it’s going to be like the present but without the good bits, just because we can’t imagine it yet.

Currently in this country (unlike many others), most of our degrees are not vocational. You just do a degree for: 1) the mind expansion; 2) the social and developmental experience; and 3) to prove to potential employers that you are a high-functioning type of person. So I don’t think that will necessarily change, even if the jobs do.
I agree. Also I think doing a vocational degree like for example computer science may be riskier than doing a generic degree with transferable skills because young people have no idea what the job market will be like in the future.

At the minute we have free at the point of access to healthcare, education and to a degree infrastructure. By the time UBI comes in people will be use to paying for access to healthcare due to the dismantling of the NHS to the most basic A&E services which in turn will not only save the country billions but make most people more responsible for their own personal health. Education will no longer be free but market driven. I can see a time where every parent will get a personal budget to spend on school. Schools will be able to choose their intake ie customers resulting in better standards because kids who disrupt will be kicked out and for children who don't suit formal education will still be able to buy an alternative.
Upthread some people mentioned housing. Whilst Government maintains high subsidies for housing and work subsidies like universal credit of course landlords will charge more and businesses will pay less. If you take these away then housing costs will reduce because the people who stay in the market will still be able to make a profit, jus a smaller one. Also if you do away with UC businesses will either have to pay more to keep their staff or fold.
We have got to a point in our society where someone can go most of their life without putting in and be better off that other people working their arses off and the safety nets of the past have turned into hammocks and eventually those strings will break and it will all come crashing down.

UBI has worked very well wherever it has been tried. There is a UBI pilot project running in Ireland right now that has just been extended.

UBI would be the end of humanity. Seriously. It's utterly dystopian and anyone who disagrees needs to think about it some more.

Or....you could say those who lived in the country for five years or more will only be eligible for the UBI scheme. It would come with conditions.

Last time I responded to a thread about this topic, posters were saying the complete opposite....that it would never work.

Glad to hear Ireland are having some success with a trial of it.

Well the economy is broken, no one can earn a living: so either they have to start giving out money or the material resources it represents, or redistribute the land itself. Assuming they want to stave off wholesale unrest caused by the inability of most of the population to live. Of course this is Britain so they may just select a lucky few to act as a defence force for the favoured rich and carry on gaslighting everyone for as long as possible.

I think over the next 20 years we'll see a bonfire of statutory duties for children, disabled people and the elderly. The message will be that they only take and don't contribute to society or people need to take more responsibility for themselves. It's logical that eventually UBI will come in, it will help shrink government and move responsibility onto citizens to either work or merely exist in poverty. And there will always be poverty but it will be ghettoized and policed accordingly. Society has been moving further to the right for years so I think the gap between haves and havenots will continue to grow and become normalised.

Part of the issue is people not wanting to do certain jobs. There was a huge shortage of truck drivers and still is to a certain extent, although not as critical as previously as many Indians/Romanians/Africans/etc have moved into the sector.

When I decided I was sick of sitting at a desk I got my license with a four day crash course and some e learning and was straight onto 40k (£50k now). I didn't want to sit on the motorway all day but some of my friends who wanted to chase the money went into fuel tankers and are earning over £60k. I get chased by agencies offering me both permanent and temporary vacancies literally every week.

How would an UBI differ from the mimimum wage? If we're talking communism style fixed income who will want to work down sewers/be a binman rather than doing admin work from home, assuming the salaries are the same?

Delivering your craft materials to your house? Wiping your aged parents’ bottoms in a care home? Digging up vegetables? Driving said produce to a depot? And on and on and on.

Most of that will be easily automated. The only one I see a challenge with automating is the care work but there is definitely significant work going on on developing nursing robotic.

Sorry! Should've RTFT.

I'm not sure it will improve health. I think a lot of people will drink more if they don't need to go to work. There's also no chance we can afford it.

It's essentially like saying "we'll just make everyone permanently eligible for benefits and they can work if they want to".

But you'd arguably develop general skills more effectively in the workplace. I got a first in English from a decent uni - I did actually want to go into a writing based career, initially journalism but ended up in bid writing.

Honestly, I spent most of the three years smoking weed and cramming last minute. Could've done it all in a few months if I'm honest. I only had seven hours of lectures a week in my first year!

I think I'd have been better just doing an intensive writing course for several months and getting close to three years experience in the real world were it not for the symbolic importance of a degree.

Some of the threads on here assume people will be responsible with their extra money. They won’t. With the extra money, they’ll just buy a bigger house, newer car, luxury goods etc, and not necessary essentials, like food, clothing, rent. So I don’t think it will alleviate poverty.

Agree. But everyone in the UK will just say ‘no money’ because this is the lie they’ve been fed for so long! There is money. Plenty of money! It’s just not in the public purse..!
Reminded me of a podcast I’d heard yesterday from The Guardian about Boris and how much he has ‘earnt’ since being PM by basically using the relationships he built during his time as pm to now make business deals. It’s literal corruption pretty much. Again- lots of money; hidden from the public purse; yet made off the back of the public and the power of our democracy..

There have been some small scale trials. Which were then quietly dropped.

I suspect, like Freecycle, it can only work in a small area with small numbers and a high level of social cohesion. It will be impossible to scale up because why should "those people" get "free money"?

Except everyone would be getting the ' free money'. I doubt it would be Utopia. More like people unable or unwilling to work living in government controlled accommodation on food vouchers and minimal State healthcare ( because ubi costs so much anything else is unaffordable) the rest working to top it up. That's why there are elements of the right who are for it.

Well yes, but where would you get work experience from? We need to encourage employers to invest in training for young people but then we are back to the immigration issue and why some of the areas where there are shortage visas are the ones where apprenticeship offers have been reduced.

I don't think there is an answer until the technological juggernaut stops rolling. And that won't happen. It's benefitted us in so many ways. We've embraced it because in many ways it's given us that free time those who spoke of this in different times wanted.

It doesn't take a whole day to do the family wash. Our food is in the supermarket, not on the fields. I'm not black leading the grate, or boiling pots of water for a bath. Those nice people at the supermarket even peel veg for me if I want.

Recently, more people are having to work more hours, but there was actually a sweet spot when we had a lot more recreation than previous generations because the work to keep a home has been eased by technology. You don't even have to boil a kettle now if you can afford a quooker.

And what did we do with the time? pursue our artistic and creative dreams or watch another episode of the latest Netflix hit?

Yes I agree, broadly. The point I was making is once you scale up this sort of thing people will inevitably become envious of others. It's classic divide and Ryle.

What happens when we can't afford it anymore and there's people who have no cultural memory of having worked, of ever having known anyone who has worked?

I live in a community where there's a lot of generational unemployment. Neighbours fighting over ridiculous nonsense, substance misuse & addiction, & young people getting drawn into crime either locally or in the nearest city are all big issues, & result mainly from boredom & hopelessness about a lack of legitimate possibilities. Sports clubs, community gardens, churches or religious centres, social centres, volunteering & opportunities to engage with the arts can all be helpful for different people.

We can't afford the likes of Boris Johnson, Farage, Musk and Besos.

Let's start by getting rid of their ability to hoard wealth, redistribute it and see how we go.

I suspect the ' envy' would be the other way, as the work will still need to be taxed and things the rich are selling will still cost more. So people working in stressed or v difficult jobs or just jobs will be resentful of their taxes going on people not contributing. It's this divide and rule or just human nature? No animal on earth including us puts other people's children over their own.