to expect our secretary to find an address in a file herself?

[gininteacups]

Probably get slated for this but hey ho I need some good old honest mumsnet perspective before I go and involve a manager at work and the shit really hits the fan...so here goes!

I work in a small team of 5 people of these 5 one does the same job as me and one is the admin for our team. The admin and the one that does my job are friends outside work and have both worked at the job for a long time (admin 15 years colleague 9yrs - Ive been there a year and a half) so are very "settled" shall we say in the job.

cutting to the chase - basically the admin shouted at me last week in front of an office full of people for "throwing work at her and treating her like shit". After much upset on both sides I asked to speak to her to try and understand what it is I have done wrong. Basically her problem has been that when I have given her work to do I will pass her a client file with a note pinned to the front saying please can you write to this person saying x,y,z - so this means she must look inside the file, find the up to date address and write the letter. She states I should write out a letter in full with address and she will then type it as its my responsibility to ensure the correct info is on there and she just types it.

My problem with this is that it would basically mean I am handwriting the letter to give it to her to type - If I'm going to do that I may as well type it myself - which I what I do most of the time anyway - I only ever give her work when I am too busy to type it myself - hence the quick note rather than the full written out letter!

Now my problem is - I really cant cope with any more crap off this woman - there are other issues as well too boring and long to put here - so I feel I need to tell my manager whats going on - but the admin is close friends with my direct colleague who is also very pally with my manager (more so than me) I know for a fact that he (colleague) will defend the admin if I tell the manager.

So mumsnet what do you think - AIBU and should I tell the manager whats going on given the dynamics of all the relationships?

Am really thorughly miserable at work and feel like getting a job in a local shop to escape all this bollocks, its hard to get accorss on here all the other subtle crap I am getting so it sounds a bit petty but this is the main issue I would need to take to a manager so please give me your opinions!

TIA

No idea why you would get slated?!! I was that 'admin' person years ago and FGS if she isn't capable of opening a file and looking up an address, she shouldn't be doing the job. People like her give admin people a bad name

Surely she wants to show some initiative and not be just a ruddy typist?!

As to what you do about it.. hard one. It sounds like that's been the routine for ever and you may well upset things by doing anything about it. I certainly wouldn't go to her manager a this stage.

Perfectly reasonable to expect her to look up the address. I was a secretary for many years and was always expected to find address, fax numbers, email addresses or whatever. If she's in a support role to the other team members, she must do whatever you need her to do. However, given the friendships, it is a difficult one to resolve. I'd say you should tackle it, though. If you're on the verge of giving the job up anyway and are so miserable, you have nothing to lose. I'd try tackling it with the admin first. Just say very politely but firmly that you require her to do this. If she then refuses, I guess you have to go to the manager.

Well, first of all, YANBU, Your post is very measured, and you have clearly reflected on all of this and arent just jumping in with a complaint about this woman. For her to shout at you publicly like that is very unprofessional and says a lot about her. Re: the address/letter issue - tbh any PA/admin assistant worth their salt should be able to cope with looking up an address. She's being difficult about it for underlying reasons, and that's where the big issue is isnt it? Because clearly there is a history here. You say there is a lot of subtle stuff that's happened, and often that can be the worst type or work politics, because it's hard to pin down what the problems are.
Do you think this woman has a jealousy issue? Does she feel 'inferior' in some way in her post?
I think having had the public shouting at, you should speak to your line manager and go through what you do in your post. Explain how you are feeling and make it clear that you want to be able to get on and do your job effectively, therefore the situation needs to be resolved.

Thanks helliebean - its such a stressful situation I have started to doubt my own capabilities and thoughts now hence the worry about being slated - I have been so thrown by it all I cant properly tell anymore if I'm behaving reasonably _ that sounds stupid - I dont know, just really down with the whole thing.

Any one got any suggestion what I can do?

a secretary conventionally takes dictation and types out a letter, they will have to fill in the contact details and sign-off but not write the actual details

so you need to establish whether you are the only one who expects her to write the actual letter or is she doing this for others

sounds to me like you both have grievances, you could perhaps talk to the manager and say 'my understanding was that admin's role is xyz, can you let me know what the true scope of this position is because I appreciate after last week that something is going wrong in our inter-office dynamic"

I would say, that reading between the lines, you could be rubbing people up the wrong way .. you seem to be annoyed at long-standing relatinships and your sense of truth and justice needs managing if you are going to resolve the situation amicably .. or you could look for another job

there may well be a reason the admin is close to colleaugue and to manager

Thanks mummydolt and findtheriver - I do think she has "inferiority" issues - she is a very intelligent woman but has always resistd the opportunities offered to her for taking on further work and moving grades. SAhe has suffered a lot with depression (as have I incidently) and even her friend (my colleague) has said she was out of order in what she did but has also made it clear he wouldn't support me If I approach management.

also reading between the lines and playing devil's advocado ... it 'sounds' from your OP as though you hand her a file with no verbal communication .. that it has a 'note pinned to it' explaining what you want .. this is problematic .. whilst you are busy and simply trying to get the job done, in a 'friendly office' you will come across as officious and as though you feel superior to her, have no respect and that you don't have to bother

you can't have her shouting at you like that in the office

on a purely factual basis, does she have a job description outlining what is expected from her role? is she feeling overwhelmed with the amount of work in general that she has? I also wonder if you only give her work when you are too busy that she doesn't like the inconsistency of it - so sometimes you do it, sometimes she does it? even so....

I think you have been reasonable but I would definitely go to the manager.

Try and phrase it so that it isn't too personal from your perspective....so say 'I am concerned that she is not managing her workload' and 'as she fulfills the admin role, I need her to pick up these admin tasks for me to work effectively' rather than she's being a reet beeatch which will be what's going through your mind .

you did the right thing in talking to her and establishing what the 'actual' problem is

it takes a lot for someone to shout at someone else in an office environment, it sounds like she'd been bubbling away and just snapped .. so well done you for waiting for calm and addressing the problem head on .. maybe you could continue the conversations .. maybe you could invite her for lunch and explain how you feel ostracised and upset and why you work in the way you do and try to find a common ground

I agree with Twiglett. When I had a share in a secretary at work that's how I used her. If it was just looking up the address, I would say YANBU, but I think expecting her to write the letter is possibly too much, depending on whether all your colleagues do this. The screaming and swearing at you in front of the office is wholly unreasonable though.

Twiglett - the admin is not close to the manager - my colleague is and colleague has been friends with admin since starting 9 yrs ago. Colleague has also said admin was out of order that she has her own personal inferiority issues, that she was over the top, that she should understand her role is to do work for us (his words not mine) but that as a close friend of hers he wont get involved in speaking to manager about it

I would say 'going to a manager' is a last resort and a sign of someone not managing their office relationships, so whilst it is a step to take, it should conceivably be the final step

how has the relationship been since the blow-up?

I don't think it's a sign of not managing an office relationship at all.

She's unhappy in her job, she needs to speak to her manager and discuss what's going on. As a manager, I'd want to know if one of my team felt that way.

I'm not surprised he won't 'gang up on her' up with you tbh .. he doesn't have an issue with her behaviour and they have had an acceptable working relationship that has developed into a friendship over the last 9 years .. you've been there less than 2 years and you have a problem no-one else does .. it might be justifiable in your eyes (and it certainly sounds like something anyone would be frustrated, annoyed and upset at and I'm not trying to minimise that

but you are looking for the most positive outcome and I think there are ways to get that .. the start of with comes from getting rid of your 'righteous indignation' and looking at your own behaviour, then communication

I think you need to establish what exactly her job description says. Is she actually just a typist or is she genuinely in a more admin role which would involve more input from her? If the latter, then you need to ascertain whether what you are asking of her exceeds her job description, whether others in the team ask the same of her and whether she's happy doing what you ask when asked by others but not by you.

If you can show that she is refusing to do something which is required of her by her job description or that she is refusing you the service she provides for others in the team, then I think you can go to the manager with your concerns.

Twiglett... I think gininteacups writes the gist of the letter out and only expects admin person to look the address up in a file (maybe I've got that wrong). Either way, unless she is 17 and this is her first job, she should be capable of actually looking up the address and typing a letter out. She sounds like a dim jobsworth tbh! If she is 'more mature' and acting like this, maybe that's why she has been in this job for 15 years... promotion obviously isn't on the cards !!!

I would tackle her directly about it. I hate with a vengeance all this friendly-with-colleagues/manager inter office politics. She's there to do a job and looking up an address aint exactly rocket science!

Thanks Twiglett - I have never ever in all honesty just handed work to her without a word. I really do try to be friendly to her - she has a lot of personal problems and I always try to talk to her sympathetically ALWAYS always offer her a cupof teawhen I arrive in the mornings, offer to take work from her if she's busy (more often than not though she whispers to give her something to do to look busy as there often isnt enough work in the team for a full time admin) I just dont really know what to make of it all.

I dont leave the whole letter for her to type just dont write it out in full always put a friendly Ta x on the notes....

I would expect someone who has been doing this job for 15 years to be able to draft out an acceptable letter when only given the bare bones of the content of the letter. Looking up the address is a minor issue; it seems that she was objecting to having to compose the letter herself. Perhaps she lacks confidence in her ability to do this and this is what led her to shouting angrily.

good, I'm glad that my assumption is wrong ..

you need to decide whether you can work the relationship out for yourself really or want your manager's involvement .. I have managed teams and entire companies and sometimes you like to see that people can work things out for themselves .. or at least attempt to .. IME your manager will most probably be aware that she shouted at you

oh and you write Ta ??? (god I hope you mean thank you )

I think it sounds like her role isn't properly defined in all honesty

she seems to sometimes do stuff, sometimes not and has the people who give her work sometimes offering to take it off her?

I dont feel righteuos indignation Twiglett not consciously anyway?? Just really hurt and confused. I also think that the manager may think like you that I am not managing my office relationships well but honestly I dont know what else I can do to be nice and co-operative.

since the blow up its been ok but very hyper friendly IYSWIM as I think she may think I am going to go to management.

Also I dont want to gang up on her I just dont want to be ganged up on for want of a less inflammatory phrase

Sounds as though she is a very unhappy woman and her personal unhappiness is spilling over into work. You seem to be doing all the 'right' things, to make her feel valued but she is choosing to throw it back at you. No simple answers, as when it's a personal problem affecting work, there's a limit to how much difference you can make. But even more important for you to deal with it - it doesnt sound like this will go away and if it's making you want to give your job up, it's obv really getting to you.

yes I think that assumption is not unfounded .. sorry

Invite her out for lunch on Monday ... talk to her about how you are feeling and what your expectations are and why .. ask her how she is feeling and what hers are, ask her if she only types letters for others .. find a resolution together in mutual respect