Ex partner handing care of our daughter over to her mother and I'm not happy about it.

[Neil90]

I apologise that this is long but I'm a dad in need of some advice from anyone who's been through similar or knows how it works.

I have an 8 year old daughter with my ex partner, we share custody 50/50 this was mutually agreed 7 years ago when we split.

Fine relationship we get along fine and never usually have any disagreements about our daughter

Last week ex decided to start doing overnight care work so she stays in the client's home all night with them and due to this has decided to give our daughter to her mother to care for whilst its her time, I've told her im not happy with this and that if she is not able to or does not wish to care for our daughter then she is to come to me full time, her mother is a nice lady but chain smokes in her flat, its a tiny one bedroom cluttered flat in a rough area and im not happy with my daughter living there 50% of the time.

The main issues I've pointed out to ex are

I'm not happy with her being stuck in a small flat with someone who chain smokes, there are health problems linked to excessive second hand smoke.

The condition of the flat, its messy and cluttered and generally not in great condition.

Daughter does not have a bedroom in the flat, she's sleeping on the sofa whilst keeping her clothes in a duffle bag, i seen my daughter yesterday and she stinks of smoke.

There is some young lads who have a flat on her street, little thugs who are in all sorts of trouble but the real issue is that they have two big alligators that run loose on the street with no control whatsoever, I'm sick with the thought of one of them getting my daughter because she wouldn't stand a chance against them.

I'm also just not happy that she's going to be raised by a grandparent half the time whilst she has a loving family here that can take care of her.

I'm married with a step child who is 9, my daughter gets on great with her step mum and step sister so no problems in that area, she has a lovely room here all to herself and a garden full of toys etc, she's able to ride her bike and be a child whilst here but when she's with her grandma she's stuck in a tiny one bed flat and can't go outside due to rough people on the street and the dogs.

My ex is refusing to let me have our daughter full time as she feels like she won't be a parent if I have her all the time, I'm more than happy for her to see daughter whenever she wishes with absolutely no restrictions, she's welcome in my home, welcome to take daughter whenever she likes and call whenever she likes, have her when she's off work and holidays but she's standing firm and refusing this.

We've never been to court over daughter before as we've always had a fine relationship and put her first but im thinking court will be my only option. Does anyone with experience of this know how it would go? Is it likely to go in my favour?

I'm worried because I have autism, high functioning autism but a good lawyer could easily make me fold under pressure in court, i own my own home and business, im a good dad and husband and my daughter has never came in to danger or anything like that in my care but a lawyer would have nothing else to use against me apart form my autism and I would 100% get overwhelmed in court under the pressure.

Ps op don’t worry about your autism, this has lots of traits that make you a good parent like you can sort your daughter out with a good routine and you clearly have a good job for her

My late husband died of lung cancer. It was a shock for all who knew him. He was 72 and had been a health and fitness practitioner all his adult life.
His parents were chain smokers and kept him inside most of his childhood.
I too would be worried if a small child was being cared for by a chain smoker, esp in a confined space.

I agree

The mother has made it clear that the DD will not be living with her again AT ALL.

She is not "sleeping over at grandmas" two nights a week. She has moved in. The mother is now living in her place alone, DD is living at grandmas whenever she is not with the OP, her dad. The mother has been explicit that she handed over all care of the DD to grandma, but is refusing to allow her to live with the OP full time (probably as she will lose all parts of her UC etc that relate to the child).

Completely disagree! The poor girl is sleeping on the sofa in a smoke-filled flat! No nice clean bedroom. The mother is taking the absolute piss and most likely financially motivated.

If the genders were reversed a lot of PPs would be a lot less sympathetic to the other parent! Ridiculous.

OP - good luck to you. Your daughter is lucky you’re pushing to get her out of that hellhole.

OP I hope you get a workable solution that your DD is happy with. I have to say your German shepherd typo/ alligators roaming the streets is the funniest thing I’ve read in MN for a while

I find your approach quite short sighted actually. What will impact her mental health long term- a messy house, clutter, smoke (In the 90’s we were all boxed in cars,cinemas,hairdressers, air planes filled with plumes of smoke) an uncomfy sofa, some riffraff colourful character neighbours with pet alligators ORRR a rip roaring sudden divide between her parents. Mammy crying, daddy shouting on the phone, granny smoking even more than usual and doesn’t smile anymore. . Step mam starts to resent her because of all BS she’s caused. As I say, Smokey hell hole flat is far from perfect, but on balance it’s better than a fall out on her long term mental development and overall wellbeing and that’s a hill I’ll die on.

SS won't agree with you.

I was a mother in the 90's and if you think that your life was normal, it wasnt. I am sorry for you that it was your normal.

Smoking was hit and miss. But a messy house, sleeping on the sofa, mother totally abandoning all interest in you to the point that she would "visit when she has the time", large dogs roaming free. Nope not normal at all. Not normal when I grew up in the 70's.

Nothing suggests that Daddy would be shouting. Mummy might be crying if she has lost two thirds of her income because she cant claim for her kid anymore, but who's fault is that? Are you happy for your tax to go to a woman on the basis that she is bringing up a child, when she isnt actually bringing up said child? That you would be paying someone who is committing fraud?

As for long term......given that she loathes it at grandmas, is already dealing with Mummy not being around anymore, losing her home and her bedroom, living out of a bag and Daddy hasnt picked her up and taken her home with him (because in her mind, it is that simple and he didnt)....how the hell do you think that little fairy tale will play out?

They might not but he hasn’t asked SS he’s asked mumsnet.

I'm the first person to be cautious about men wanting custody but you need to go to court OP.

You're absolutely right about the chain smoking and the court will take it seriously as they will regarding sleeping on a sofa.

Don't worry about your autism. It won't be seen as an issue save for any adjustments you may require.

Alligator Alsatians aside, I assume you're in the UK; this mostly won't apply elsewhere (and may not in NI or Scotland).

Two options:

(1) convince (directly or via formal mediation) Ex that staying at Gran's is causing problems for your daughter. See if she'll compromise by having Gran stay at Ex's place, or daughter come to you, on work nights. Agree to revert when her hours go back to "normal". You wrote she is not able to or does not wish to care for our daughter,* but she IS arranging care for her via a close family member, and wishes to continue being in charge of 50% of the care. You say she is to come to me full time, *but if you and Ex can't agree then it's up to the courts, so ...

(2) seek legal advice to apply for a CAO. A court may increase your overall nights but still say she goes to Ex on non-work nights as they'll try to get as close to 50/50 as is feasible. You can ask for a condition in the Order requiring advance notice if daughter stays overnight at a third location besides your house or Ex's, but you can't prevent it unless the court agrees there's clear unacceptable risk. The court will initially view the current arrangement as Ex providing care for your daughter during her allocated time, via Gran who's acting under her direction and with her oversight, so you'd have to convince them that provisions are unsafe or inadequate or that the time Ex actually spends (not what she says she'll spend) with daughter is so minimal that she can't have effective oversight and has effectively abdicated her parental rights (for now).

If you have evidence that the child has actually moved to Gran's permanently that helps but it's still not always a dealbreaker (although it would probably change your right to CMS). The courts won't interfere in personal decision-making or curtail a parent's rights unless the child's welfare is in danger. Also, the courts won't care if your house is nicer than Gran's flat as long as both places are deemed "adequate" for the care of your daughter. You may think "why should she stay there when my place is obviously so much better for her?" but the court just asks "is each place good enough?" That may seem like a low bar as the law accommodates people in all sorts of financial and personal situations as much as it safely can. There's sensitivity around privileging the parent in a better financial situation to the detriment of the child's relationship with the other parent, so less-than-ideal factors like a parent working nights or a child not having her own room or even someone chain-smoking indoors aren't dealbreakers on their own.

Get real local legal advice specific to your situation !!! But in the meantime, I'd:

Gather what you have in writing re the original arrangement with Ex. Write down anything missing in your own words. With no CAO, a legal team acting for you would set out the informal agreement with Ex as a starting point and show how recent changes make it unacceptable for your daughter.

If Ex has emailed/texted relevant info about the change, print that out and supplement with a written record of anything relevant Ex, daughter, or any 3rd party have said up to this point (e.g., daughter has complained to someone else who has told you, school has said something). There are some objective, evidenced claims (secondhand smoke has been proven to cause health issues) and some subjective. A different child might say they're used to Gran's smoke and think sleeping on the couch with a duffel is a fun adventure - but THIS child is upset by it, and isn't getting used to it. That's an important piece of the picture for the court.

Starting now, keep a dated running log of the nights daughter spends at your house, nights at Ex's if any, and nights at Gran's. Write any new information (comments from Ex or daughter, daughter coming home smelling, etc.) in the log with date and time. Keep it brief, clear, and factual. Give it to your legal team if you go that route. Good luck; I hate the smell of cigarettes!

And a lot of the advice has been to contact social services, what does that tell you?

You’re joking surely. You think it’s good for the girl’s mental health that her mother has basically washed her hands of her own daughter and left her in the smoky hellhole with grandmother?! Not to mention the fact that mother is still happy to receive the maintenance she isn’t even due and no doubt other benefits! The divide is already there!

It sounds like the OP is bending over backwards to make his daughter’s life comfortable. Your predictions for how this will play out are strange and very short sighted! OP needs to take this to court and get a formal arrangement in place. No need then for shouting / crying and all the other nonsense you predict. Everyone knows where they stand then and if mum can’t actually look after her daughter then OP can and is willing to.

It’s mental. If this was written by a woman with the dad having dumped the kid with his mother (ignoring the shitty surroundings) while she was sending her ex money everyone on here would be up in arms!!!!

PS who gives a crap if granny isn’t smiling?! This is about the girl and the girl only.

PPS just because a load of us grew up inhaling secondhand smoke it doesn’t mean it’s ok 🙄

Firstly, no need to apologise to me about my experiences with smoke in the 90s but I appreciate the sentiment as insincere as it was. I’m glad you were a mother in the 90s and general gatekeeper, judge and jury of all this ‘normal’. Second of all, what exactly is your point? What do you suggest he does then? Hes asked mum’s net. Not a court of law. Begin court proceedings because the child’s situation is so dire? And tell his ex who he’s managed (which is quite the rarity!) to stay friends with that’s she’s out of order and going to loose custody of her daughter. If so then say that to him rather than coming at me. I’ve given my opinion and you wont change that. I work in mental health and people don’t complain about smoke, clutter, sh-t neighbours, sleeping on sofas, they’re affected by family and relational problems more predominantly. The emotional environment they grew up in. Fact. I say he should do what he needs to do but shelter that girl at all costs from their dispute!

So, as an expert in such matters, perhaps you could comment on my final paragraph?

ETA I can assure you that my sadness that you believing your experience was normal is anything but insinscere, I am genuinely sorry that your childhood was like that.

You’ve mistakenly assumed I’m interested or influenced by the other comments, or being right or wrong here. I’m not here to be swayed or convinced. It’s not my dilemma. I’ve given my opinion and that’s it.

I would judge anyone that would let their child sleep on a stinking of smoke couch and only have a duffle bag for their clothes to. Doesn't change the fact you said something stupid about a typo 😂

I agree with everyone else.
You need proper legal advice.
I hope your daughter will be okay. ❤️

In which case, why bother posting?

If you are so sure in your own mind and have no interest in entering into a conversation that may challenge your views, why?

It worries me that you claim such knowledge in this area, yet refuse to allow your own beliefs to be challenged. If you "work in mental health" I really hope that it doesnt mean that you have direct contact with service users above answering the phone.

@PyongyangKipperbang i didn’t say my childhood was like that. You are deflecting and being intentionally antagonistic in a very poorly disguised way by trying to make it about me when I was actually speaking about the general population of children in the 90s in the Uk and not my own experience. How the fairytale will play out I’m not sure and granted the problems listed are far from ideal and yes, a big problem. . But it’s inaccurate to believe a court order or any formalised type of order will be a painless, magic wand manoeuvre in this situation. A breakdown between the parents will be very detrimental to her.

Good luck OP. Hope your DD best interests are looked after.

I grew up with my grandparents in the summers.
It wasn’t because my parents didn’t want me. It was because my parents and older siblings worked all summer long in agriculture and I was too little.
So I got shipped off to the mountains every summer with my Nana and Papa.
Only they didn’t smoke. Or drink. Or curse.
And once a week Nana would pack up a picnic and we’d head out to some fabulous location where we could see forever or we could see a beautiful river or big tall trees.
It was like The Sound of Music or something.
And in the beginning, I thought I was being punished. I thought I should be down in the 110F heat working alongside my family.
I was 5.
Go get your girl, @Neil90. She’s worth it.

I really hope you will get your daughter home with you. The situation at Grandma's doesn't sound good at all.