Flags..

[Elephant9]

Just a chat to understand what’s going on with the influx of England and UJ flags all over the streets?

thoughts?
where did it stem from?
is it making you uncomfortable? (It is, me, but not entirely sure why)

See, there you go. You're a prime example of the problem. Rather than think ' let's take a look at what people in these communities are objecting about and critically analyse it to see what could be done,', you've gone straight on the blame train. I'm not talking about the far right antics, no ones excusing violence or hate speech, but rather the silent, peaceful majority who live in these areas who have justifiable concerns but are not allowed a say without a label attached to them.

Well no because that’s imaginary. Working class people are allowed a say they’re not allowed to paint abuse on Chinese takeaways, shout at immigrants and demolish our local areas.

They can say all they like. Loudly if they want. But violence and or aggression isn’t going to be listened to.

So, you view all working class people as violent, abusive, vandals and aggressive? Great. Noted.

They’re objecting about the very existence of other races, ethnicities, nationalities, non-binary genders, homosexuals, and supranational organisations as far as I can tell.

Are " they"? In your head and on the headlines of your preferred newspaper, they may be.

And you can tell all that from a flag can you? Righto 🙄

Obviously not. That would make myself violent abusive etc etc.

The ones who paint flags all over shops and tell people to “go home” will end up either vilified or ignored. It’s a bit like throwing your toys out the pram, I’m not picking them up for you.

As in them.. not “you” personally.

I am willing to listen and to engage because I do think there are genuine concerns around immigration and how immigration has been managed I do not label everyone who has concerns as racist

but these people putting up flags shouting you are not welcome here etc are not wanting to engage they feel they have a right to now loudly spout their racism and it’s hidden behind being patriotic

same as the NF thugs in the 70’s that my family had to deal with

This is my take too.

I’ll have a sensible discussion about immigration, of all types and not just asylum seekers, all day long with whoever.

But if you’re spending your Saturdays shouting at hotels, or your answers are “I just don’t want to live near brown people” or “sometimes they stand on my local high street” or “well Islam doesn’t respect women so we’re all gonna die” … I probably don’t want to hear it.

If your opinion is a list of sound bites about how immigrants get phones from the government, when they don’t, or get loads of money, that they don’t… I don’t want to hear it.

Happy to discuss actual facts and actual situations, but nonsense lies and people who advocate pushing Filipinos over in parks need not apply.

But with respect, you are not listening to them, you are drawing your own lines about who is worthy of being listened to. The group of individuals you are not willing to engage with are the ones who are frustrated about not being listened to. Then someone like Tommy Robinson comes along and listens to them, makes them feel heard. The issue will never be solved if you are only willing to listen to a select group

But there are many people on the Left who have arguments consisting solely of social media soundbites.

we need to get beyond the superficial nature of this and talk about and hear the underlying issues

. Can we all agree that people shouting hate speech and using violence are absolutely wrong and move the conversation along then in that case?. What are some of your concerns about immigration?

Interesting that starmer has finally had his say on the flags today. He approves and believes them to be an expression of patriotism.

The trouble is, what actually counts as “hate speech”? I think some of the words used against protestors on here are extremely hateful. Do you accept that “hate speech” can occur on both sides?

Violence is not the right answer, but the frustration people feel at not being listened to was likely to overspill into violence.

Do you accept people have the right to protest if they feel frightened that large numbers of people are freely entering this country, where we have no idea who they are, what threats they represent? People who are using our resources? Perceived (rightly or wrongly) to being treated better than British citizens? To be coming from cultures with different beliefs and practices to those in Britain?

Well he apparently has one up in his own flat. Are the Left now accusing him of being a “flag shagger” and “thick” like they accuse others of.

There are people on both sides of the political spectrum (and at times it’s not even about being more on the left or right) who have no interest in discussion

there are certainly those on the liberal side who are like this as there is on the right side

it’s those who are open to discussions and to listen who meed
to come together to move forward

this is nothing new just social media plays right into this

But not everyone does agree that hate language is wrong they feel it’s justified

as for your other question I will answer on threads about immigration and the impact of immigration

Oh I 100% agree that there is fault on both sides here, Those on the middle willing to talk are not the issue, Those in the middle need to work together to make sure that those on all sides need to be engaged. We need to ensure those typically on the Left acknowledge there is a problem and that people have valid concerns about immigration which need to be addressed. Some of the language they are touching around is just as derogatory and offensive as that on the right. This needs to be treated similarly under the law. Those on the right need listening to and to feel understood and where appropriate action taken to address their valid concerns

those whipping up the left and right need to be dealt with equally under the law

Hmmmm, so you don't want to engage in discussion then? We could keep on posting the same things over and over on here about hate speech, but to what end? I do believe the " middle " is the voice of reason and from this position, debate can only be positive.

! Yes, I believe absolutely hate speech / slurs/insults derogatory language IS wrong - whether it comes from the left or right. My issue is the hypocrisy of the left who think nothing of dropping in ' gammon ' etc to their everyday language which in my mind, can be nothing less than a racist slur. But they don't see it at all. Alongside the well worn stereotypes of " fat, bald, toothless, beer swilling, thicko " who apparently, has no right to breathe the same air. Every time I see the coverage of the protests in the guardian or on the BBC, I'm presented with the same stereotypical images - it's clear as day to see, they'll never use images of middle aged woman who are also protesting. It's utter propaganda and the narrative of " fascist Britain " continues to be fed.

I have engaged in discussions about the issues around the flags suddenly being put up all around the country and my thoughts about those who are behind this

that’s what the thread is about

Ok, yes I see that. Sorry

If you read the guardian comments, you'll see that he's being labelled as exactly that! Interesting times.

They show the middle aged women too

Funny how they're all so unflattering. Think the photographer needs a new vocation? Or could it be deliberate.... Pray tell, where did you source these from?