Flags..

[Elephant9]

Just a chat to understand what’s going on with the influx of England and UJ flags all over the streets?

thoughts?
where did it stem from?
is it making you uncomfortable? (It is, me, but not entirely sure why)

You're the one accusing me of having no idea what it's like to live in a multicultural society. I'm not trying to 'make a point'. Do you want posters to provide a full resume on posting. You made assumptions about me. They were wrong. You could have asked, rather than accusing. But you chose to assume I didn’t know what I was talking about.

Why don't you refer back to your previous posts? You know, the one where we had a cordial exchange of differing opinions. It was you who gave up information of where you lived and the demographics - no prompting required.

You made the assumption that I had no idea what living in a multicultural area was like. I don’t live in a multicultural area now. Which is why I have concerns about the responses of individuals who don't and have never lived in a multicultural area. Why I'm concerned about the racism exhibited by people who have never lived anywhere that isn't 98.3% white, but still think it's reasonable to fly flags not for reasons of celebration and joy, but to intimidate and bully. I've seen the social media video of a local woman, asking very politely, that a flag not be put on the telegraph pole outside her home, being recorded and then subject to the most vile abuse online.

I think the expanding population is a problem. The population of our city has grown substantially in recent years, but that mostly from internal migration. Not sure what we can do about that, we can’t send them back to other regions of the UK.

We’re an extremely diverse city with the highest asylum seeking population outside of London. All manner of nationalities live and work side by side. I don’t recognise that being a problem, I think it enriches our community. People here are generally good, regardless of heritage.

No assumptions were made by me, let's clear that up. You gave information about where you lived freely, with no caveat that you had previously resided in multicultural areas until pushed... I do question whether you are the one making assumptions about the population of your town though. How do you know that they, like you, have not also lived previously in diverse areas? it can't be an entirely static population. Why do you assume that they are coming from a place of ignorance?

'No assumptions were made by me, let's clear that up'

Your post 'That may be so. But the fact you live in a 98% majority white area tells me that you can not comprehend multicultural living. It's outside the scope of your experience.' kinda gives the lie to that.

You think I'm making assumptions about people. You think I don't know about people in the small town where my parents and two grandparents were born, and that I've lived in for many years on and off? OK. You obviously know far more than I do. Well done.

There’s a pub in Birmingham that’s been on social media with people asking to boycott it.

The video shows a group of men with flags arguing with a security guards and the pub manager ( I presume she was management))

The men become abusive and are obviously filming the incident.

The pub I think was a Green King one who I would imagine probably can’t allow any flags for political reason.

These men were all probably middle aged lager louts , who have never waved a flag in their lives until now.

Is it wrong to feel sorry for the poor staff who were on this video ? They were probably just following the rules of the pub and ended up going viral on social media..

@Southern25 That’s terrible. It’s exactly because of thugs like them which makes me want to distance myself from our flag. Right wingers whinge that we’re ashamed of our country. We aren’t. We’re ashamed of holligans like these.

This is extremely simplistic. Why do you think the “right wing” have gained a foot hold?

if we hadn’t had years of the Left dissing our history? Years of self flagation over Britains success at activities almost every European country was partaking in 400-100 years ago. Useful idiots flying flags of terrorist organisations, defacing and tipping important historical statues into rivers. Moaning about teaching our actual history rather than scratching around to make sure everyone felt represented, ridiculous story lines and unreal depictions in the media/entertainment industries, vilification of patriotism, the flag wouldn’t have been available for the taking. If people were welcomed into the middle ground rather than told it was far left or nothing then o can guarantee the current situation would have been a lot more balanced. But I’m afraid the left have to shoulder the responsibility by enforcing their toxic notions that has created a void into which the far right have been able to recruit.

The same has happened as we have villified masculinity, there has been no truck with the centre balanced natural position so men, feeling natural masculinity has no where to express itself have been attracted to extreme edges.

We need to concentrate on the middle ground, this needs acceptance by the left that many of their ideologies and actions are also repulsively extreme.

If you ask these stupid thugs what they are proud of, what aspects of history and modern day life makes them proud to be British they would struggle to answer

And this is based on what precisely? Maybe if you actually stopped writing people off and started listening you might learn something, people would feel listened to and they would be less likely to seek out extreme views.

Your kind of rhetoric is an integral part of the problem.

The far right didn’t appear because the left criticised history - it’s grown everywhere off fear, inequality and disinformation. Criticising Britain’s past isn’t “hating Britain,” it’s honest patriotism. And when the right responds with violence and vandalism instead of debate, it shows they’re driven by anger, not solutions.

I’m sorry, but you’re incorrect. When people are obsessing about Britains involvement in the slave trade, they miss out the global context. Britains leading role in ending it, Britains colonialism is looked at anachronistically and one sided. There is zero balance. The Lefts view of history is often very far from “correct”. The fact you think there is a “correct view” says everything.

The Left deny people their views and often people are left feeling unheard of, telling people they’re “thick” underlines this. So is it any surprise people are drawn to people who listen and understand.

The Left have driven the increase in popularity of the far right. We need to move back towards the centre. The Left are as abhorrent as the right

Facing up to slavery and colonialism isn’t “hating Britain,” it’s telling the full story. Abolition doesn’t erase the exploitation that came before.

And the far right didn’t grow because the left was dismissive, it grew because extremists exploit fear and inequality. Blaming the left just excuses the far right’s violence.

I want the migrants to stop coming over , I don’t want boats making the crossings and I think what’s happening to the UK is terrifying.

But I’ve never felt the need to drape myself in a St George’s flag in a pub ( I can understand if there’s a reason such as football for example) but these men were doing it to be provocative.

Are these social media ‘hard men’ just trying to provoke a reaction?

But just because Britain like many other countries, has been involved in slavery hundreds of years ago btw, doesn’t mean you can just allow untold amounts of young men to come here illegally does it ? What nonsense is this ? !

I expect we'll be told these men putting up flags are doing it because their masculinity has been vilified.

Nobody is arguing that historical slavery gives people the right to arrive here without the requisite permissions though.

Dear women, you’ve brought it on yourself by making the menfolk feel silly.

No I wasn’t aiming that at anyone on here , I just meant a I’ve heard that argument before

Actually, this is part of the problem. There was a great interview on the news this morning about why young men are turning to people like Andrew Tate etc and a good part of it is that boys are afraid of exploring their masculinity and there’s not really many avenues to do this in a supportive way.

But it’s not telling the full story is it? It is often told on a very one sided way that is no more impartial than the previous descriptions.

If the left weren’t so exclusionary and derogatory, writing people off as “thick” and uneducated and bigoted and actually listened people wouldn’t feel so drawn to the far right.

The Left have played a massive part in the current circumstances and if the current situation is to be addressed the left need to admit its role in this.

Why is everyone assuming that all flag flyers are men. Is that because it's another thing from the list of things mumsnet hates?

I absolutely agree with this. I loathe reform, they'll be catastrophic in power, but the left are driving this and pushing people that way. The dehumanizing language to describe working class folk is abhorrent and absolutely rife on here. How can calling people gammon, thickos, scum, knuckle draggers possibly help? It's vile. equally, the complete dismissal of voices living within multicultural poor majority ethnic cities are drowned out with cries of racist should they ever dare to say these fragmented communities are not inclusive or integrated. The absolute hypocrisy of the m/c elite living in bubbles who are whipping up this hatred through their name calling and privileged observations, they're the problem! I would dearly love for them to spend a year living in alum rock or small heath or bordesley green and then come back with an opinion on whether immigration on this scale is really benefiting anyone.

Maybe the left are doing the same - pushing back against right wing people living in their own bubbles, who label them “woke” (in the new derogatory sense), “snowflakes”, “blue haired”, “hysterical”, “don’t know what a woman is”, “alphabet people”, “terrorist apologists”, “virtue signalling”, “antisemitic”, “tree huggers”, “naive”, “anti-white”, “unpatriotic”, “anti-British” and “traitorous” - among others.

Is name calling really the reason the far-right are illegally co-opting public infrastructure for their flag displays, vandalising roads, homes & businesses, yelling at hotels and planning to vote for ultra-capitalist oligarch billionaires who plan to exploit them and make their lives even worse ?