Fucking fuming - child maintenance review

[aremenreallysuchcunts]

Got child maintenance review today. DC dad declared he earned £13,248 last financial year. He claims he works 6 days a week and is always late picking dc up due to work and works every weekend even the Saturdays he has dc. He owes £1254 in arrears via the cms and £2500 from before I applied to the cms (obviously I have written that off) so now I get the princely sum of £29.30 a week but not before cms have taken their 4%.
is this a joke? How do men like this have no shame? I know there is nothing to be done I am just venting. I have never included his money in my budget thank god but that doesn’t mean I don’t need it! I work full time and I work hard but why do men think this is ok? Why do the girlfriends think this is ok? Why do the father’s parents think this is ok? I have 3 boys and no way would I be congratulating them on avoiding maintenance.
Oh, and he’s a plasterer 🤣
Fucking patriarchy.

Ok I’ll bite.

I was one of those women. Not married, nor living together. He was a waste of space. I knew I would get barely anything if I was lucky so I never bothered. And you know what? It was great.

I walked away and had nothing more to do with him. 33 years and counting. I never stressed about it, just got on with life.

you say you budget and can manage without getting anything. Why do you let him live rent free in your head? Why are you letting him stress you out? Of COURSE he should pay, but you know he won’t so stop letting it bother you.

@Mustbethat

I think the idea is that jail is a deterrent and makes men comply on the first time of asking.

Agree re: more forensic accounting and investigation of these ltd company structures and payments.

@aremenreallysuchcunts - hate to say it but I did wonder if he was a “tradie” when I saw your opening post. I have seen and heard of soooo many who do this.

@aremenreallysuchcunts

I dont know if it’s any consolation, this wont run as easily for much longer. Cash is being faded out.

The builders working on my property have been bitching non stop about the fact that more and more customers are refusing to pay in cash, and in some establishments it’s now card only. They are complaining that they cant use their hidden money.

I am quite invested in these conversations because I think it’s outrageous. They also all dont pay tax.

So why don’t we do something @aremenreallysuchcunts?

Why don’t we actually get together and form a pressure group about this? Look, I’m married and don’t have this issue but my mother and I have discussed it lots in the past and we are both passionate about it. Think of all the thousands of women who are dealing with this who would get behind you, and then those of us who aren’t but think it’s a disgrace and would get behind you. Why don’t we actually use the Mumsnet connections of all the women who read here to actually fucking do some good and form a group and put pressure on the government, other parties and try and adjust how CMS works? Encourage more women to get angry, throw in a little shame on men. We can all talk about how horrific it is and endure it or we can all shout and scream and try and actually change something? It may not work, but it may do enough. We can only try? There must be people on here who would be willing to put time towards a group and make a difference?

Just a thought. I don’t have any experience but I would get behind you.

Ah, I’ve just seen this! I only read the first half of the thread before posting. I think it’s great, let’s use Mumsnet to affect change. Behind you all the way. X

There should be no requirement for the RP to detail what they spend the money on.

If the NRP feels their child is being neglected in favour of hair appointments then they can report that to the appropriate authorities to investigate.

There should be no watering down of anything other than "you owe child maintenance, which is a minimum of x% of your income" as anything else would be an abusive exes dream.

It could also easily lead to it being used to check that Child benefit is being used appropriately, then other benefits. A slippery slope that shouldn't be built imo.

I had five kids - I still have them but they're adults now. Their DF decided that, because I initiated the split, there was no way he was going to pay. So he kept moving around, quitting job after job (to be fair he'd done that before too). I would get letters telling me how CMS had power to seize his driving licence/his passport etc etc and I would be yelling 'DON'T TELL ME, JUST BLOODY DO IT!'. They never did, He owed me over £30k when they finally caught up with him, by which time all the kids had left home. He then retired and no longer had to pay.

My kids grew up in such poor circumstances that we daily joke that it's surprising they aren't all in prison. I am beyond proud that they are all earning plenty, owning their own homes and happy and secure. But those years of terror at bailiffs coming round, rent not being paid, having no money for Christmas or even food, will never leave me.

I don't necessarily disagree but I'm looking at what the barriers are and how to overcome them. If administered appropriately, it could be done that the NRP never actually sees the details, but it is overseen by the CMS and unless THEY raise a query, that's the end of it. The money is the child's, not the RPs. That doesn't mean it can't be spent partially on rent, utilities etc since most RPs have higher housing costs than NRP - proximity to schools, bigger gardens, bedroom each etc none of which are vital at an NRPs house if they only have them once in a while but it would put a stop to the most frequently given reason for not paying that "she blows it all on wine and nails".

You have done an incredible job. Be proud.

They can quite easily set up a sting operation and see if he takes cash in hand or they can just ring him and say that they need plastering done.

https://www.gov.uk/report-tax-fraud

You might get a reward.

I don't necessarily disagree but I'm looking at what the barriers are and how to overcome them. If administered appropriately, it could be done that the NRP never actually sees the details, but it is overseen by the CMS and unless THEY raise a query, that's the end of it. The money is the child's, not the RPs. That doesn't mean it can't be spent partially on rent, utilities etc since most RPs have higher housing costs than NRP - proximity to schools, bigger gardens, bedroom each etc none of which are vital at an NRPs house if they only have them once in a while but it would put a stop to the most frequently given reason for not paying that "she blows it all on wine and nails".

I don't think it would stop that at all. It would simply add to the feeling of entitlement in NRP's that they should have a say and control over the RP's spending.

Actually the biggest reason people gave when I worked for CMS was "I can't afford it".

What there needs to be is a campaign to remind NRP's - and the friends and families of NRPs - that their children are still their financial responsibility after they split. Not a bonus extra down the list after future children (this is the most common excuse for not paying - zero consideration for the fact that their older children still need fed and watered) cars, holidays, and nights out. The phrase "I'm entitled to have a life" is one I heard pretty much daily.

I had five kids - I still have them but they're adults now. Their DF decided that, because I initiated the split, there was no way he was going to pay. So he kept moving around, quitting job after job (to be fair he'd done that before too). I would get letters telling me how CMS had power to seize his driving licence/his passport etc etc and I would be yelling 'DON'T TELL ME, JUST BLOODY DO IT!'. They never did, He owed me over £30k when they finally caught up with him, by which time all the kids had left home. He then retired and no longer had to pay.

Have they written off the money? If they ask you to then do not give permission - demand it stays on record.

One of the charming men I spoke to when I worked for CMS was a chap who, when doing will planning, had realised that if his ex kept up her fight to keep her case open than his CMS debt would be a debt against his estate. He was absolutely furious.

There was also a case where a woman received a large amount of money she was owed when her ex died unexpectedly. The money was taken from his estate (and in that case he hadn't made any provision for the children from his estate). She sent a card as she'd only kept the case open on the advice of a woman working for CMS.

OP and others in same boat - if ex is earning more than he declares to HMRC as a self employed whatever and relies on cash heavily then please PLEASE tell HMRC everything you know.

I used to work in HMRC Compliance investigations. Cash takings not declared were the very easiest way of catching them out and hitting them with huge tax arrears going back years. Every investigator hoped that we'd see very little cash withdrawn from accounts which wouldn't fit with information gleaned from the person at interview. These people aren't very bright and the looks on their faces when the penny dropped that we were going to absolutely shaft them was priceless.

Write anonymously if you want. Give as much information as you can. You have nothing to lose - he could lose everything with your help.

There is an element of luck also.
In addition, your circumstances were different no? Her dad left whereas yours was abusive? Remember no two children in the same family are parented the same and have the same experience

Because I'm sure it's better for HER profile optics to be..strong independent woman, doing it alone. Actually what would be really impactful is to have a bunch of popular, famous MEN standing up for this..take the "them and us" out of it and make it about simple fairness.

Very valid point.

But thats the point..they DONT get a say, it's overseen by the CMS or similar and it's only for them to investigate if they feel there's an issue. The only onerous aspect would be on the RP to keep records but similarly the NRP has their income checked more rigourously. Again, it shouldn't have to be the case but to effect change, you sometimes have to compromise.

In the short term what would be very damn helpful if the CMS website published a definitive list of what things are "covered" by CMS and which are not, with something about the CMS being a legal minimum requirement and there is an expectation that NRPs will go halves on "extras" but non essentials like hobbies and school trips and to big one off expenses like the Autumn uniform but and school laptop. It should be clear that any paid childcare after any free hours and UC portions covered should be halved and does not come out of maintenance, not is it the "RPs" childcare. It enables both to work.

But thats the point..they DONT get a say, it's overseen by the CMS or similar and it's only for them to investigate if they feel there's an issue. The only onerous aspect would be on the RP to keep records but similarly the NRP has their income checked more rigourously. Again, it shouldn't have to be the case but to effect change, you sometimes have to compromise.

The only change that needs to be effected is that CMS should use the vast array of powers they have. The fact they have them shows there's an acceptance that they need them.

Anything else just dilutes the actual issue - which is that too many feckless men (and a handful of feckless women) financially neglect their children and socially acceptable to do so.

The one myth they should perhaps be highlighting is that CM is meant to cover 50% of the cost of a child. It's not. It's meant to be a fair proportion of your income. If you earn vastly more than the other parent then your percentage should be vastly more. The 50% thing comes up on here a lot.

@ARichtGoodDram but that would surely work both ways then? Both the RP and NRPs income should be considered? My ex and I earn the same but I pay waaay more than he does in CMS directly for our kids. I don't get to ring fence a percentage and then say that's it.

I should have been clearer - the 50% thing is a myth often used by the higher earner as an excuse not to pay because they feel their £xx is covering more than 50%, with zero understanding that they should pay more because they earn more.

It's a proportional contribution based on income rather than a set 50% of the absolute basics (which is what many seem think it is).

Having worked for CMS there are loads of things I'd changed, but the easiest and quickest would be - make them use the powers they have, and burst that myth.

My ex has paid a full pound in 28 years for two kids (and thinks I should pay that back!)

The csa rang him and he told them he wasn't paying a penny as 'that bitch gets enough in benefits and will spend my money on herself' (he meant working tax credits)

He's happy for the taxpayer to cough up but not himself-his kids can't get in the way of affording his 5* holidays and posh car

Csa where worse than useless,they seemed to wash their hands off the case and I never heard back from them and when I got through to them all I got was 'we are working on it'

He has a lot of fingers in illegal pies (like flogging illegal tobacco/goods and cash in hand jobs) but nobody seemed bothered (and I did report him)

He did have the nerve to chase me through the streets,yelling at me for spending 'his' money on myself via my hair nails and clothes (the full £1 i think)

His family and new girlfriend will tell everyone how I rinsed him for every penny even though they where the ones backing him up for not paying as I 'got enough money' (I didn't,I really struggled'

I would have been arrested if I'd said 'fuck this,I'm not spending money on food,clothes,housing or heating on you kids' so why is it different for him?

I haven't closed the case. He made some payments for a couple of years (between CMS catching up with him and his retiring), then the payments just stopped - I only assume it's because he retired (which I know he has). CMS have not been in touch in any way, either to ask me whether I want the claim to stay open or even to tell me his retirement is what stopped the payment. Everything just went silent and the money stopped. He's only a couple of years older than me, but now I'm going to outlive him out of spite and in hope of getting a cut of his estate (which, knowing him, will be pennies by the time he dies).

I think it's a fair question. I don't know any RPs that would have any issue in "proving" what it's spent on.
I'd kindly ask CMS to take their pick on which bill they'd like to deduct CMS from. Is it £100 quid from the nursery bill? £100 from the electricity bill? Or £100 from my food bill? They could also deduct it from rent/ mortgage payments, or maybe they fancy taking it off the after school clubs? I don't know. But it wouldn't be hard for anyone to evidence!
Even happy for them to deduct it from the school uniform shop 😂

I haven't closed the case. He made some payments for a couple of years (between CMS catching up with him and his retiring), then the payments just stopped - I only assume it's because he retired (which I know he has). CMS have not been in touch in any way, either to ask me whether I want the claim to stay open or even to tell me his retirement is what stopped the payment. Everything just went silent and the money stopped. He's only a couple of years older than me, but now I'm going to outlive him out of spite and in hope of getting a cut of his estate (which, knowing him, will be pennies by the time he dies).

That's just appalling. You should have received a letter about the change.

If you get a letter at any point that reads as telling you that they're writing off the debt, write back to them and state that you object to that and want to keep it the debt open. They are meant to ask if you want it closed but the letters very much read as if you don't have a choice.

Definitely worth keeping it open. My grandparents would finally have got something from my father when he died because he inherited from his partner shortly before his death (didn't have time to drink it all away), but they pre-deceased him.

A salaried man can just go self employed.

They catch on quick in my experience.