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To think that, under the threat of "Let the war begin", there should be specific laws against male's entering female private spaces (and vice versa)

1000 replies

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 08/08/2025 14:46

After being told they will not be allowed to enter female toilets, changing rooms, clubs and other private sexed spaces, men have vowed to "fight" or be arrested “multiple times

https://archive.ph/tdkd0

"Let the war begin. Fingers crossed. You need to fight for all of us globally. It’s a war."

I think it is reasonable to have a specific crime for this sort of violation of rights and privacy, rather than Outraging public decency, Voyeurism, Exposure/ indecent exposure.

It seems clear that without firm dealing with, men are going to violate these spaces again and again.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
ArabellaScott · 11/08/2025 14:05

Suicide is a fraught and serious subject. Maybe best if people refrain from 'lol' comments. This isn't a game of semantics. It's very real and has real impacts.

BundleBoogie · 11/08/2025 14:06

Tandora · 11/08/2025 13:38

Ah but being allowed to use facilities for women is part of living as a woman you see: that thing you declared to be impossible.

But they are not allowed to use facilities designated for women. That is the point of this thread.

So they are not ‘living as women’. The law says.

And as you can’t partially ‘live as a woman’ (as well as needing to be female), they may as well just give up now and we can all go home.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/08/2025 14:10

ArabellaScott · 11/08/2025 14:05

Suicide is a fraught and serious subject. Maybe best if people refrain from 'lol' comments. This isn't a game of semantics. It's very real and has real impacts.

Quite.

TheKeatingFive · 11/08/2025 14:11

A man cannot 'live as a woman', just as a horse cannot 'live as a fish'.

It's a category error

ArabellaScott · 11/08/2025 14:14

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11063965/

'Individuals who underwent gender-affirming surgery had a 12.12-fold higher suicide attempt risk than those who did not (3.47% vs. 0.29%, RR 95% CI 9.20-15.96, p < 0.0001). Compared to the tubal ligation/vasectomy controls, the risk was 5.03-fold higher before propensity matching and remained significant at 4.71-fold after matching (3.50% vs. 0.74%, RR 95% CI 2.46-9.024, p < 0.0001) for the gender affirmation patients with similar results with the pharyngitis controls.

Conclusion

Patients who have undergone gender-affirming surgery are associated with a significantly elevated risk of suicide, highlighting the necessity for comprehensive post-procedure psychiatric support.'

For balance, this review into research calls for more research, and more rigorous methodology:

'There is a need for continued research on suicidality outcomes following gender-affirming treatment. Future research that incorporates multiple measures of suicidality and adequately controls for the presence of psychiatric comorbidity, substance use, and other suicide risk-enhancing factors is needed to strengthen the validity and increase the robustness of the results. There may be implications for the informed consent process of gender-affirming treatment given the current lack of methodological robustness of the literature reviewed.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10027312/

borntobequiet · 11/08/2025 14:16

Tandora · 11/08/2025 14:01

How is it convoluted in any way?

If you treat anorexia by affirming it, your patient will probably die.

If you treat transness by affirming it, your patient will be relieved of their distress and not be at any risk of death.

No one treats anorexia by affirming it, unless they are complicit in some way with the sufferer, precisely because of the harm it could cause.

Affirmation of a claim of transgender identity also has the potential to harm the sufferer, as we see from the testaments of many detransitioners. Puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones can cause significant damage, especially of young bodies. This is why affirmation should be discouraged.

RedToothBrush · 11/08/2025 14:17

Ok let's go to what is not said and often isn't allowed to be said.

If we accept it's a condition then let's examine that.

First of all the Cass Report pointed out that it was a multi-cohort who identified as trans for a multitude of reasons.

However there's been this weird desire for so many, including academics, to lump them altogether into one group rather than discuss whether there is a number of different things going on.

So let's start with one of the elephants on the room.

Why did the T attach a condition to the LGB?

Are we suggesting that the LGB are 'a condition'? Cos that's pretty offensive now isn't it.

And it's always be really quite bizarre why the T attached itself originally to the LGB. Until you start examining the history and how historically it was virtually only men who transitioned unusually in middle age. We also know that in the past, police would have actively noted cross dressing as a potential red flag for sexually motivated crimes because it was so common. We can't get away from this point about it often being sexually driven - ESPECIALLY because the T attached itself to sexualities and emphasises that it's 'just like being gay'.

There was this need to turn the LGB into an identity rather than a sexuality as part of this legitimisation process. But many LGB people don't see it as an identity, just their sexuality. Their identity is lots of other things and they just happen to be homosexual or bisexual. It's almost as if the T wanted to sanitise being a sexuality by saying it was an identity.

Moving on from this, we also have a different group who it's very firmly about dislike of their body. We have lots of forms of body dsymorphia - anorexia is one. So why on earth is a condition from the same family as anorexia tacking itself onto the LGB. It seems actively very odd. More than that treatments for body dsymorphia have been very much the opposite - you don't affirm issues relating to disgust with your body in any other scenarios as it makes the issue worse. There is a very firm movement to deny talking therapies too - but we see resistance to treatment for anorexia too and that can result in being sectioned. So this is very odd. And then we get the stuff about how people with this condition should be making all the decisions and then telling doctors!

Moving on from this, we see clear patterns relating to trauma, particularly sexual trauma. If it's a naturally occurring phenomenon which is innate, what the hell is the explanation of this? Trauma is a product of nurture not nature. And yet we are asked to put the T alongside the LGB. Are we saying that the LG or the B are also strongly related to trauma? There's absolutely no parallel evidence for this. Which once again is pretty offensive when you think about it.

Moving on from that we have this new wave of young people coming out as trans. Except theres really high rates of homosexuality in this group. And we are also seeing the young lesbian population shrinking. This is odd. Except this is a generation which grew up with marketing pink for girls and blue for boys to a degree we never had as children. And never had to deal with the same levels of pornification as the current youth. And we have a middle aged cohort of women who say they felt similar in their teens and twenties due to social pressure but are glad they never transitioned because they are happy now. This group are routinely ignored as 'ignorant' at best but there's a whole range abusive terms thrown at them and they are dismissed as having an inadequate 'lived experience' whilst we simultaneously MUST ABSOLUTELY UNCONDITIONALLY listen to their male peers who DID transition, but not in their youth - only once they'd reproduced and we're in middle age. There's a massive cognitive dissonance here and dare I say it, clear sexism.

Then there's the cult like trends. Detransitioners are ostracised and any dissent can led to shunning. From people within the same community and who supposedly have the same condition. This is not a naturally occurring thing. This is purely about condition and we see these extreme lengths to control the narrative.

Which brings us back to all these scholarly articles. And asking a pretty big question. How good in quality are they? And a really big question - would people, use biased studies simply to show the results they wanted for ideological reasons?

Now we know this is a huge issue in medicine. Particularly around ANY medicine that relates to sex - women's health is ideologically dominated in a way mens doesn't tend to be. There are huge numbers of studies relating to 'whats best, section or vb' which are debunked. WHO got caught using one study to say that a planned CS was more dangerous than a planned VB when the actual data in that particular study showed the exact opposite!

Also many of these studies are dated now - and never took data relating to females. Because there pretty much were any. That's interesting in its own right. Especially when these studies are used to advocate for transition treatment for females. This is a pretty damn big flaw. As we start to get data based on a female cohort we are seeing different information emerging.

So I might propose that this might be an area of medicine which might be ideologically biased deliberately in favour male sexualities and out of homophobia.

And that actually the whole argument that being transgender is deeply flawed on a HUGE number of levels ESPECIALLY when tacked onto LGB interests and groups.

Perversely when you start to break it down the homophobia, the sexism, the activism led by the cohort who display some worrying trends about sexualisation, the frequent anti-science and anti safeguarding narratives, the extreme attempts to control the narative and the attempts to monolith being transgender into a singluar group start to look not like 'just like being gay' but something much more sinister that ignores the best interests of a huge number of particularly vulnerable young people and children.

It is troubling on a huge number of levels.

The argument doesnt stack up.

borntobequiet · 11/08/2025 14:17

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

Tandora · 11/08/2025 14:18

ArabellaScott · 11/08/2025 14:03

Suicides, unfortunately, increase post 'gender affirming' surgery. I'll try and find the research in a mo.

I will take a read, but affirming transness is not just about surgeries.

(Also what surgeries were they speaking of and what was the control?)

Tandora · 11/08/2025 14:20

ArabellaScott · 11/08/2025 14:14

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11063965/

'Individuals who underwent gender-affirming surgery had a 12.12-fold higher suicide attempt risk than those who did not (3.47% vs. 0.29%, RR 95% CI 9.20-15.96, p < 0.0001). Compared to the tubal ligation/vasectomy controls, the risk was 5.03-fold higher before propensity matching and remained significant at 4.71-fold after matching (3.50% vs. 0.74%, RR 95% CI 2.46-9.024, p < 0.0001) for the gender affirmation patients with similar results with the pharyngitis controls.

Conclusion

Patients who have undergone gender-affirming surgery are associated with a significantly elevated risk of suicide, highlighting the necessity for comprehensive post-procedure psychiatric support.'

For balance, this review into research calls for more research, and more rigorous methodology:

'There is a need for continued research on suicidality outcomes following gender-affirming treatment. Future research that incorporates multiple measures of suicidality and adequately controls for the presence of psychiatric comorbidity, substance use, and other suicide risk-enhancing factors is needed to strengthen the validity and increase the robustness of the results. There may be implications for the informed consent process of gender-affirming treatment given the current lack of methodological robustness of the literature reviewed.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10027312/

Right so the research isn’t robust and hasn’t even controlled for basic factors like psychiatric comorbidity.

furthermore surgery is just one treatment and very different to social transition or hormonal interventions.

BundleBoogie · 11/08/2025 14:23

Tandora · 11/08/2025 13:40

No it doesn’t involve giving them your limb.
it might however involve constructing an artificial limb for them, and allowing them to use basic facilities for people with both limbs 🤷🏼‍♀️

But nobody is banned from using facilities because they’ve only got one leg. Unless it’s on safety grounds which still wouldn’t be satisfied by a false limb. Your analogy doesn’t work on any level.

Tandora · 11/08/2025 14:25

BundleBoogie · 11/08/2025 14:23

But nobody is banned from using facilities because they’ve only got one leg. Unless it’s on safety grounds which still wouldn’t be satisfied by a false limb. Your analogy doesn’t work on any level.

Of course they are not, that’s not the point 🤦🏼‍♀️😂.

this is such a waste of my time

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 11/08/2025 14:26

Tandora · 11/08/2025 14:25

Of course they are not, that’s not the point 🤦🏼‍♀️😂.

this is such a waste of my time

it's a waste of YOUR time?!?!?!

How the hell do you think the rest of us feel!!

We are doing a good faith discussion, you are clearly not, you ignore points you have no answers for and cherry pick things you have deliberately misunderstood!

OP posts:
SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 11/08/2025 14:28

RedToothBrush · 11/08/2025 14:17

Ok let's go to what is not said and often isn't allowed to be said.

If we accept it's a condition then let's examine that.

First of all the Cass Report pointed out that it was a multi-cohort who identified as trans for a multitude of reasons.

However there's been this weird desire for so many, including academics, to lump them altogether into one group rather than discuss whether there is a number of different things going on.

So let's start with one of the elephants on the room.

Why did the T attach a condition to the LGB?

Are we suggesting that the LGB are 'a condition'? Cos that's pretty offensive now isn't it.

And it's always be really quite bizarre why the T attached itself originally to the LGB. Until you start examining the history and how historically it was virtually only men who transitioned unusually in middle age. We also know that in the past, police would have actively noted cross dressing as a potential red flag for sexually motivated crimes because it was so common. We can't get away from this point about it often being sexually driven - ESPECIALLY because the T attached itself to sexualities and emphasises that it's 'just like being gay'.

There was this need to turn the LGB into an identity rather than a sexuality as part of this legitimisation process. But many LGB people don't see it as an identity, just their sexuality. Their identity is lots of other things and they just happen to be homosexual or bisexual. It's almost as if the T wanted to sanitise being a sexuality by saying it was an identity.

Moving on from this, we also have a different group who it's very firmly about dislike of their body. We have lots of forms of body dsymorphia - anorexia is one. So why on earth is a condition from the same family as anorexia tacking itself onto the LGB. It seems actively very odd. More than that treatments for body dsymorphia have been very much the opposite - you don't affirm issues relating to disgust with your body in any other scenarios as it makes the issue worse. There is a very firm movement to deny talking therapies too - but we see resistance to treatment for anorexia too and that can result in being sectioned. So this is very odd. And then we get the stuff about how people with this condition should be making all the decisions and then telling doctors!

Moving on from this, we see clear patterns relating to trauma, particularly sexual trauma. If it's a naturally occurring phenomenon which is innate, what the hell is the explanation of this? Trauma is a product of nurture not nature. And yet we are asked to put the T alongside the LGB. Are we saying that the LG or the B are also strongly related to trauma? There's absolutely no parallel evidence for this. Which once again is pretty offensive when you think about it.

Moving on from that we have this new wave of young people coming out as trans. Except theres really high rates of homosexuality in this group. And we are also seeing the young lesbian population shrinking. This is odd. Except this is a generation which grew up with marketing pink for girls and blue for boys to a degree we never had as children. And never had to deal with the same levels of pornification as the current youth. And we have a middle aged cohort of women who say they felt similar in their teens and twenties due to social pressure but are glad they never transitioned because they are happy now. This group are routinely ignored as 'ignorant' at best but there's a whole range abusive terms thrown at them and they are dismissed as having an inadequate 'lived experience' whilst we simultaneously MUST ABSOLUTELY UNCONDITIONALLY listen to their male peers who DID transition, but not in their youth - only once they'd reproduced and we're in middle age. There's a massive cognitive dissonance here and dare I say it, clear sexism.

Then there's the cult like trends. Detransitioners are ostracised and any dissent can led to shunning. From people within the same community and who supposedly have the same condition. This is not a naturally occurring thing. This is purely about condition and we see these extreme lengths to control the narrative.

Which brings us back to all these scholarly articles. And asking a pretty big question. How good in quality are they? And a really big question - would people, use biased studies simply to show the results they wanted for ideological reasons?

Now we know this is a huge issue in medicine. Particularly around ANY medicine that relates to sex - women's health is ideologically dominated in a way mens doesn't tend to be. There are huge numbers of studies relating to 'whats best, section or vb' which are debunked. WHO got caught using one study to say that a planned CS was more dangerous than a planned VB when the actual data in that particular study showed the exact opposite!

Also many of these studies are dated now - and never took data relating to females. Because there pretty much were any. That's interesting in its own right. Especially when these studies are used to advocate for transition treatment for females. This is a pretty damn big flaw. As we start to get data based on a female cohort we are seeing different information emerging.

So I might propose that this might be an area of medicine which might be ideologically biased deliberately in favour male sexualities and out of homophobia.

And that actually the whole argument that being transgender is deeply flawed on a HUGE number of levels ESPECIALLY when tacked onto LGB interests and groups.

Perversely when you start to break it down the homophobia, the sexism, the activism led by the cohort who display some worrying trends about sexualisation, the frequent anti-science and anti safeguarding narratives, the extreme attempts to control the narative and the attempts to monolith being transgender into a singluar group start to look not like 'just like being gay' but something much more sinister that ignores the best interests of a huge number of particularly vulnerable young people and children.

It is troubling on a huge number of levels.

The argument doesnt stack up.

You’ve nailed it.
When you strip away the slogans and look at the detail, “transgender” isn’t one neat, unified condition, it’s multiple, very different issues being rolled into one ideological package. It’s been politically bolted onto LGB in ways that make no medical or logical sense, often at the expense of lesbians and gay men themselves.

We see patterns that would normally raise red flags in any other field: body dysmorphia treated by affirmation instead of therapy, trauma-linked presentations treated as innate, data gaps on females plugged with studies on males, and an activist culture that shuts down dissent and erases detransitioners.

The result is an area of medicine steeped in bias, homophobia, and sexism, all dressed up as progress, and it’s putting vulnerable young people at risk while pretending it’s “just like being gay.” It isn’t.

OP posts:
borntobequiet · 11/08/2025 14:28

Tandora · 11/08/2025 14:25

Of course they are not, that’s not the point 🤦🏼‍♀️😂.

this is such a waste of my time

It’s helpful from our point of view, so carry on.

Tandora · 11/08/2025 14:29

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 11/08/2025 14:26

it's a waste of YOUR time?!?!?!

How the hell do you think the rest of us feel!!

We are doing a good faith discussion, you are clearly not, you ignore points you have no answers for and cherry pick things you have deliberately misunderstood!

How the hell do you think the rest of us feel!!

Then please for the love of god stop demanding I engage with you .

Laughing out loud at the idea that I’m not engaging in good faith discussion.

ArabellaScott · 11/08/2025 14:30

Tandora · 11/08/2025 14:20

Right so the research isn’t robust and hasn’t even controlled for basic factors like psychiatric comorbidity.

furthermore surgery is just one treatment and very different to social transition or hormonal interventions.

Glad we agree. Nobody should be given plastic surgery purely for 'dysphoria', and absolutely not on the NHS.

BundleBoogie · 11/08/2025 14:30

Tandora · 11/08/2025 13:46

No . Using the female toilets doesn’t mean you are necessarily living as a woman.
But living as a woman in society includes using women’s facilities/ services.

So I can use the female toilets even if I am not ‘living as a woman’?

In your view, who is eligible to use the female toilets? How do I know if I am living as a woman or not?

This is so confusing.

ArabellaScott · 11/08/2025 14:30

Tandora · 11/08/2025 14:29

How the hell do you think the rest of us feel!!

Then please for the love of god stop demanding I engage with you .

Laughing out loud at the idea that I’m not engaging in good faith discussion.

Thanks for your input, it's been helpful.

RedToothBrush · 11/08/2025 14:30

Tandora · 11/08/2025 14:25

Of course they are not, that’s not the point 🤦🏼‍♀️😂.

this is such a waste of my time

Interesting timing to decide it's a waste of your time.

Hmmm.

Tandora · 11/08/2025 14:31

ArabellaScott · 11/08/2025 14:30

Glad we agree. Nobody should be given plastic surgery purely for 'dysphoria', and absolutely not on the NHS.

We don’t agree on anything on this subject

RedToothBrush · 11/08/2025 14:32

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 11/08/2025 14:28

You’ve nailed it.
When you strip away the slogans and look at the detail, “transgender” isn’t one neat, unified condition, it’s multiple, very different issues being rolled into one ideological package. It’s been politically bolted onto LGB in ways that make no medical or logical sense, often at the expense of lesbians and gay men themselves.

We see patterns that would normally raise red flags in any other field: body dysmorphia treated by affirmation instead of therapy, trauma-linked presentations treated as innate, data gaps on females plugged with studies on males, and an activist culture that shuts down dissent and erases detransitioners.

The result is an area of medicine steeped in bias, homophobia, and sexism, all dressed up as progress, and it’s putting vulnerable young people at risk while pretending it’s “just like being gay.” It isn’t.

Always worth reminding people that eugenics was regarded as progressive at the time and was fashionable.

There a lot of history relating to medicine and ideology and it's pretty universally a bad combination.

BundleBoogie · 11/08/2025 14:35

Tandora · 11/08/2025 13:46

No . Using the female toilets doesn’t mean you are necessarily living as a woman.
But living as a woman in society includes using women’s facilities/ services.

So women that choose to use unisex facilities are not living as women?

Does that include disabled women who have to use unisex facilities?

ArabellaScott · 11/08/2025 14:35

Tandora · 11/08/2025 14:31

We don’t agree on anything on this subject

That seems kind of absolutist, but okay.

Tandora · 11/08/2025 14:35

RedToothBrush · 11/08/2025 14:17

Ok let's go to what is not said and often isn't allowed to be said.

If we accept it's a condition then let's examine that.

First of all the Cass Report pointed out that it was a multi-cohort who identified as trans for a multitude of reasons.

However there's been this weird desire for so many, including academics, to lump them altogether into one group rather than discuss whether there is a number of different things going on.

So let's start with one of the elephants on the room.

Why did the T attach a condition to the LGB?

Are we suggesting that the LGB are 'a condition'? Cos that's pretty offensive now isn't it.

And it's always be really quite bizarre why the T attached itself originally to the LGB. Until you start examining the history and how historically it was virtually only men who transitioned unusually in middle age. We also know that in the past, police would have actively noted cross dressing as a potential red flag for sexually motivated crimes because it was so common. We can't get away from this point about it often being sexually driven - ESPECIALLY because the T attached itself to sexualities and emphasises that it's 'just like being gay'.

There was this need to turn the LGB into an identity rather than a sexuality as part of this legitimisation process. But many LGB people don't see it as an identity, just their sexuality. Their identity is lots of other things and they just happen to be homosexual or bisexual. It's almost as if the T wanted to sanitise being a sexuality by saying it was an identity.

Moving on from this, we also have a different group who it's very firmly about dislike of their body. We have lots of forms of body dsymorphia - anorexia is one. So why on earth is a condition from the same family as anorexia tacking itself onto the LGB. It seems actively very odd. More than that treatments for body dsymorphia have been very much the opposite - you don't affirm issues relating to disgust with your body in any other scenarios as it makes the issue worse. There is a very firm movement to deny talking therapies too - but we see resistance to treatment for anorexia too and that can result in being sectioned. So this is very odd. And then we get the stuff about how people with this condition should be making all the decisions and then telling doctors!

Moving on from this, we see clear patterns relating to trauma, particularly sexual trauma. If it's a naturally occurring phenomenon which is innate, what the hell is the explanation of this? Trauma is a product of nurture not nature. And yet we are asked to put the T alongside the LGB. Are we saying that the LG or the B are also strongly related to trauma? There's absolutely no parallel evidence for this. Which once again is pretty offensive when you think about it.

Moving on from that we have this new wave of young people coming out as trans. Except theres really high rates of homosexuality in this group. And we are also seeing the young lesbian population shrinking. This is odd. Except this is a generation which grew up with marketing pink for girls and blue for boys to a degree we never had as children. And never had to deal with the same levels of pornification as the current youth. And we have a middle aged cohort of women who say they felt similar in their teens and twenties due to social pressure but are glad they never transitioned because they are happy now. This group are routinely ignored as 'ignorant' at best but there's a whole range abusive terms thrown at them and they are dismissed as having an inadequate 'lived experience' whilst we simultaneously MUST ABSOLUTELY UNCONDITIONALLY listen to their male peers who DID transition, but not in their youth - only once they'd reproduced and we're in middle age. There's a massive cognitive dissonance here and dare I say it, clear sexism.

Then there's the cult like trends. Detransitioners are ostracised and any dissent can led to shunning. From people within the same community and who supposedly have the same condition. This is not a naturally occurring thing. This is purely about condition and we see these extreme lengths to control the narrative.

Which brings us back to all these scholarly articles. And asking a pretty big question. How good in quality are they? And a really big question - would people, use biased studies simply to show the results they wanted for ideological reasons?

Now we know this is a huge issue in medicine. Particularly around ANY medicine that relates to sex - women's health is ideologically dominated in a way mens doesn't tend to be. There are huge numbers of studies relating to 'whats best, section or vb' which are debunked. WHO got caught using one study to say that a planned CS was more dangerous than a planned VB when the actual data in that particular study showed the exact opposite!

Also many of these studies are dated now - and never took data relating to females. Because there pretty much were any. That's interesting in its own right. Especially when these studies are used to advocate for transition treatment for females. This is a pretty damn big flaw. As we start to get data based on a female cohort we are seeing different information emerging.

So I might propose that this might be an area of medicine which might be ideologically biased deliberately in favour male sexualities and out of homophobia.

And that actually the whole argument that being transgender is deeply flawed on a HUGE number of levels ESPECIALLY when tacked onto LGB interests and groups.

Perversely when you start to break it down the homophobia, the sexism, the activism led by the cohort who display some worrying trends about sexualisation, the frequent anti-science and anti safeguarding narratives, the extreme attempts to control the narative and the attempts to monolith being transgender into a singluar group start to look not like 'just like being gay' but something much more sinister that ignores the best interests of a huge number of particularly vulnerable young people and children.

It is troubling on a huge number of levels.

The argument doesnt stack up.

No being trans and trans healthcare has nothing to do with homophobia and sexism. Quite the opposite.

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