To think that, under the threat of "Let the war begin", there should be specific laws against male's entering female private spaces (and vice versa)

[SingleSexSpacesInSchools]

After being told they will not be allowed to enter female toilets, changing rooms, clubs and other private sexed spaces, men have vowed to "fight" or be arrested “multiple times”

https://archive.ph/tdkd0

"Let the war begin. Fingers crossed. You need to fight for all of us globally. It’s a war."

I think it is reasonable to have a specific crime for this sort of violation of rights and privacy, rather than Outraging public decency, Voyeurism, Exposure/ indecent exposure.

It seems clear that without firm dealing with, men are going to violate these spaces again and again.

The intended purpose is for women to use them. If you park your car in there that is not the intended purpose. If a man uses them that is not the intended purpose.

Note that I said man. I don't care if the man is trans or not. That has no relevance.

Having been told they are for women no decent law-abiding man will go in them. That means any man spotted in one is not law-abiding and not a decent man.

Simplifies things doesn't it.

D'you know what absolutely infuriates me?
It's the idea that Not A Bloke = Woman

My DH did this for ages (until argumentatively bludgeoned into submission over a two year period because I have the references and the receipts)
My 20-something sons do this. My 18yo daughter does this.

If they see a male who doesn't fit the stereotypes and assumptions of what a bloke is, and who rejects the idea of Manhood, they jump to Woman.
When several of the workers in his large office identified as women, DH said "I'd hate for them to have to use the men's room or use the male changing room at the gym. They might be at risk"
There's no a thought for women

A male human who rejects masculinity isn't a women. We aren't blokes without cock.
Man is not the Default Human.
Rejection of Manhood ≠ Woman
.

So, a male person believes that they are a child AND believes equally and on the same basis that they are female.

Are they a female child?

If not, why is one belief to be validated and the other not? They come from the very same philosophical theory being applied that means believing they are female should be validated.

The birth certificate thing is a bit of a red herring.

You can alter one to say you are female if you have a Gender Recognition Certificate, but having a GRC does not make you female for the purposes of the Equality Act. So they are useless for this purpose. They are not photo-id either so could be anyone's birth certificate.

In any case we can all see what sex you are. The whole passing thing was just people being kind to transwomen who asked.

A profile pic can look female after a long session with photo-shop, but that doesn't help in real time. There are a few transwomen who would pass in a poor light if they didn't move or speak, but that's not going to apply here.

The workplaces act requires that there be male and female toilets/changing rooms (or single user toilets etc)

They require them to have running water too and if a company didn't maintain them so there was no water for watching and toilets couldn't flush they would be in breach of the regulations.

If an employee wrecked them they could not simply say "we provided them. It's not our job to ensure they remain usable."

Now if they do not enforce the single sex nature of the toilets they must also be in breach of the regulations.

If they allow men in the women's they are not providing single sex toilets any more.

@Helleofabore

Bloody hell, that quote about pedestrian murder. Who said there was no evidence that women matter less than men?!!

No doubt women are seen by these types to not even be able to get murdered properly. I’m sure a man pretending to be a woman would be so much better at it. Of course he would be much better and far likelier to be the perpetrator, as men commit virtually all violence towards women.

Here is Chappell. A Philosophy professor at the Open University.

“On this particular issue of safety concerns raised when gender recognition acts are introduced, so a lot of this looks much more to me like anecdotes than data. It’s not like there’s a body of hard evidence that lots and lots of stuff is happening which is really bad. There’s the odd anecdote.”

and

“Suppose people were saying ‘Well you know if you make it easier for gay people to be themselves in society there’s going to be a crime wave or dreadful homosexual murders are going to happen, it’s going to be awful if we do that’, I think we’d rightly dismiss that as scaremongering and we’d say ‘No it doesn’t matter, it doesn’t matter’. It wouldn’t matter, actually, if there was a slight spike in those statistics because this isn’t about that kind of issue.”

A Week in the War on Women: Monday 20th September - Sunday 26th September (substack.com)

There is a link to the radio interview on this substack. I remember listening to it myself and felt shocked. This was referring to deaths and harms of women and girls because he felt that the 'safety issues' should be dismissed.

I mean Chappell was an advisor to BPAC too!

Just to pull out this:

“It wouldn’t matter, actually, if there was a slight spike in those statistics because this isn’t about that kind of issue.”

This is the type of person, if not one of the people directly, who have been shaping the framing of extreme trans activists for decades I believe.

“It wouldn’t matter, actually, if there was a slight spike in those statistics”

Fionne Orlander and Miranda Yardley are trans identifying men who use the mens facilities and guess what? They’ve been fine.

There is precisely zero need to for who call themselves women to use women’s facilities. You will need to get used to that as we’re only going to work harder to enforce women’s spaces.

The reality is that people whose sex is male (this includes men who call themselves women) need to use male facilities. You’ll get it eventually.

I’ve just read and reread your last post several times. My brain actually can’t hold the words as the meaning is so shocking. The idea that misgendering was seen as violence against men, that following the SC ruling some men posing as women claimed to be too afraid to leave their home.

But what you’ve quoted is the basis for actual fear, not performative fear that these men enact when they hear a big fat No. it’s truly chilling.

My post should have been @Helleofabore

Because being trans is not a “belief”. Just like being gay is not a “belief”.

Being trans is a real axis of human diversity , tied to broader processes
of development , that affects a minority of people.

Transness cannot be “cured” through therapies, anymore than homosexuality can, and it’s extremely harmful to the individual to force them to repress or deny their experience of transness. It is a fundamental and elementary/ core part of their humanity.

There is precisely zero need to for who call themselves women to use women’s facilities.

this is a complete denial of the needs /
experiences of trans people.

You will need to get used to that...The reality is that people whose sex is male (this includes men who call themselves women) need to use male facilities. You’ll get it eventually.

This will not happen. It’s unenforceable, unreasonably discriminatory and profoundly harmful to a minority of the population. It’s completely unsustainable both practically and from a standpoint of human rights/ justice.

That's fine. You do you.

You think that but not everyone does and the whole 'its just like being gay' thing is force team and many gay people not only disagree with it but also find it actively offensive.

Even if we take your position that it's not a belief , it still doesn't change anyone's sex and we shouldnt we rearranging the whole of society for it.

The phrase here is reasonable adjustments.

There is nothing about expecting everyone else to agree that men are women and women are men that is reasonable.

Didn’t answer the question. In fact, I think you attached your post to the wrong post because it seems disconnected from mine.

Here it is again.

So, a male person believes that they are a child AND believes equally and on the same basis that they are female.

Are they a female child?
If not, why is one belief to be validated and the other not?

Women’s single sex spaces = female people (not just women but girls as well).

Just because some people labelled them “women’s”, never changed the purpose being only for female people and male children under around 8 years old.

So, there should have been no expectation for a male person above 8 years old to be in the female spaces.

My response was direct to yours. Your logic is premised on the idea that being trans is a “belief”, equivalent to any other “belief” a person may hold about their identity.

But your premise is false and wrong.

Because being trans is not a “belief”. Just like being gay is not a “belief”.
Being trans is a real axis of human diversity , tied to broader processes
of development , that affects a minority of people.

Transness cannot be “cured” through therapies, anymore than homosexuality can, and it’s extremely harmful to the individual to force them to repress or deny their experience of transness. It is a fundamental and elementary/ core part of their humanity.

This will not happen. It’s unenforceable, unreasonably discriminatory and profoundly harmful to a minority of the population

No, it isn't. Transwomen are at no more risk in the men's toilets than other subgroups of men like those with disabilities or those who are gay.

Plenty of trans identifying men have used the correct toilets for their sex for years - because they respect women and don't want to encroach or intimidate us.

Trans identifying men are not a fragile, vulnerable group. They are male adults who have facilities provided for rhem. If they don't wish to, or reject third spaces that's them putting constraints on their own lives, not anyone else.

Transwomen don't 'need' to use women's spaces, they want to. Part of growing up is accepting we don't get to demand the world give us what we want. They are not women, they cannot become women. Accepting that seems pretty important for people's mental health. Requiring others to validate one's self-image is a sure road to depression and distress.

The trans people in my social circle prefer to use gender neutral spaces on the whole and I respect that. Several transmen prefer the women's spaces and obviously they are welcome there.

‘Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components’

‘Being trans is a real axis of human diversity tied to broader processes of development’

You’ve got to hand it to Tandora, they’ve gone to quite some lengths to invent scientific sounding arguments for their position.

The first quote was used ad infinitum on the thread created to draw them away from the Sandie Peggie thread.

We’ve now got the axis which is making more appearances than Ant & Dec. I’d have some respect if they just said these men want to live their lives as their idea of a woman, & they want to use female spaces to help them validate this experience.

The answer is still no of course, they’re men.

But instead we’re asked to wring our hands & scratch our chins about multidimensions & an axis.

Prove any one of those statements.

So, a male person believes that they are a child AND believes equally and on the same basis that they are female.

Are they a female child? If not, why is one belief to be validated and the other not?

Being trans is a real axis of human diversity

What on earth does this mean, Tandora?

Axis: a fixed reference line for the measurement of coordinates.

This isn't a hypothetical question, either. It's a real thing.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/stefonknee-wolschtt-transgender-father-leaves-family-in-toronto-to-start-new-life-as-a-sixyearold-girl-a6769051.html

'Stefonknee (pronounced ‘Stephanie’) Wolschtt, 46, had been married for 23 years when she realised she was transgender.
She's now living with an adoptive family, and says she does not “want to be an adult right now”.
“I can’t deny I was married. I can’t deny I have children. But I’ve moved forward now and I’ve gone back to being a child,” she said in a video series by The Transgender Project, published by Daily Xtra.
Ms Wolschtt said her wife could not accept her as a transgender woman. She was told to either “stop being trans or leave”.
“To me, ‘stop being trans’ isn’t something I could do,” she says. “It would be like telling me to stop being 6ft 2 or leave.”
Feeling rejected by her family, Ms Wolschtt left and now lives with her adoptive family, who she says are “totally comfortable with me being a little girl”.'

Can you explain why Stefonknee is genuinely a woman entitled to use women's spaces, and whether he should be entitled to go to primary school as he's also a six year old?

Because being trans is not a “belief”. Just like being gay is not a “belief”

Says who?

Who is the gatekeeper making this decision?

It's not something that has universal consensus.
It's not provable in science.
It's disputed as being the same by gay people.
It's not got universal political consensus.
It's not something that has historical precedence that can be shown by contemporary sources, only modern day interpretations.
It's still regressively associated with gender stereotyping.

The answer is no.