Tenant issue

[Rosie8880]

Hi.

Have been renting to a tenant for 2 years and also extended AST for another year ending in summer next year. All good and fine, no hassle. This week two flats below were impacted by water emanating from my flat. The lower of the two has water marks/ damage to one ceiling, the flat below water has leaked to about 3 rooms - ceilings, carpets. plumbers have reported that it’s inconclusive and would need to do further investigations but say likely cause of a bath overflow. Tenant is worried as says this did not happen and is worried about further leaks. My flat is unscathed which I find strange if thankful, considering volume of water thought to have escaped. I will face claims from both flats which will be covered by insurance.

interested to hear what others would do as next steps.

So now your tenant are lying to hide their culpability...

You really have decided that it was their fault already.

I am empathic to should they have lied, why they have lied. It’s not clear but but with FOUR plumbers saying the same thing its a bit hard to ignore.

I have had a leak in my bathroom for EIGHT MONTHS. And not for the want of trying. I have had several plumbers out. We have had:
(1) a nut that has come loose - tightened, leak came back a week later
(2) faulty seal - seal repaired, leak came back a week or so later
(3) that nut again - tightened, leak came back a week or so later
(5) wrong trap under bath - changed, leak came back a week or two later....

I could go on, but you'd lose the will to live, as did I. Different plumbers, different diagnoses, same leak!!!!

Finally about a month ago the new plumber nailed it. The shower screen had been fitted incorrectly and sealant had been put in "the wrong channel" (don't ask me, the explanation made no sense to me either). Because of changes in temperature, sometimes it caused water to leak down through a channel in the screen, others it didn't, hence the erratic "fixed/not fixed" scenario. It took him less than an hour to remove the screen, clean it down and replace it correctly sealed.

In total I had seven plumbers all provide completely wrong answers. They are plumbers, not gods. The plumbers don't wildly care what they say, provided they get paid.

That is insane! Glad you got it sorted.
This incident is being viewed by lettings agent, building management co, neighbours as the fault of tenant - why? The leak was a one off. It happened only for a few hours + stopped. It’s not happened since a few days back. Four plumbers have given their views and I’ve got to get the neighbours calmer as they are hopping mad. Which can understand. I’m onto speaking to letting agency who have relayed tenant isn’t admitting liability/ that it was a bath overflow. The leak hasn’t happened for a few days, the neighbours in other flats just need their homes fixed and their anxieties calmed (worries about building damage if mould takes hold pas an example.) But can imagine tenant is feeling isolated, anxious and vilified - and even if it was an accident, I do understand, accidents can happen - but it wasn’t just a small blip of a leak which would be damage. It was multiple rooms of damage, two flats - I mean. That’s some carelessness IF it was carelessness. I’ve got to look at investigations but at some point the investigations will need to end and a cause logged got claims to start and others to start remedying their homes that thru no fault of their own have been really damaged too.

If you can definitively show that it is the tenant’s fault, I would ask them to pay for the insurance excess or the cost of the work if your insurance won’t pay. Their contents insurance may cover this (some policies cover accidental damage to the landlord’s property).

I wouldn’t evict them for a one off mistake.

A small amount of water can cause a lot of damage, don’t assume this took gallons of water. You’ve also been given lots of reasons why this might have only happened once (so far) eg a small leak that pooled over time before it caused enough damage to break through, leaks that open (and close) when the weight of the water (and occupant!) pull them apart or when a loose bath or pipe moves, or are temperature sensitive, or leaks from elsewhere that have run down so the damage is nowhere near the leak. You can’t assume it was the bath overflowing because it hasn’t happened again since.

Stop wasting money on multiple plumbers, get a proper survey for leaks. Ignore what the letting agent and neighbours “think”, they have no expertise. If there is a complex issue, it’s unlikely any plumber is going to find it on an initial assessment without doing thorough tests. You are just getting multiple plumbers to do the same thing when you need one plumber to do more thorough tests.

So there are tiles below the bath? Any cracks or flaking grout? Is there any gap or skirting water could pass through? A puddle below the bath might have been easily mopped up but already seeped causing damage underneath. The alternative is to remove the ceiling panels below and look at the staining to trace it back.

We had the same - pipe behind the bath was loose

If you can go through insurance as it sounds like an expensive repair job l.

I am empathic to should they have lied, why they have lied. It’s not clear but but with FOUR plumbers saying the same thing it's a bit hard to ignore.

None of your FOUR plumbers have said "this is what has caused it".

None of your FOUR plumbers have said it happened through carelessness.

None of your FOUR plumbers have lifted the floor and made sure it came from that bathroom.

None of your FOUR plumbers have done a dye test.

All that's happened so far is that your FOUR plumbers have done exactly as you're doing and going with the easiest suggestion rather than actually properly investigating the issue.

Is the flat your tenant lives in the only one above the two that have been damaged?

Are there any other flats below the damaged ones?

No flsts above, 2 below. Both impacted.

One flat above two others js an unusual set up.

Is a converted building?

All extremely good points and also will take on investigations as need to close out risk of other leaks.

The tenant has indicated to letting agent it was an accident not in writing but over the “phone earlier today, I just was told.

Its a difficult situation which no one wanted to be in - everyone is traumatized in flats below I think it’s safe to say and I am in the position of having to judge what is the fairest outcome for all. Including my flat too. Tenant wasn’t honest and that could have caused additional damage taking emotions out of it due to not reporting it immediately. Which puts the tenants integrity in question albeit I am empathic as to why - the risk of eviction and $$$. Continued advice is welcome.

Yes.

There's no point in giving further advice.

Every post you make is further blaming your tenant and the determination you have to make it their fault and something you have to deal with is very clear.

Your mind is clearly made up that your tenant is to blame and should be evicted.

And to say people are traumatised by some water damage is ridiculous. The entire kitchen ceiling came in on my flat, while I was in it, because of an error when the washing machine upstairs was plumbed in and I wasn't "traumatised". Annoyed. Yes. Relieved I wasn't actually covered in water - yes. Traumatised is a ridiculously dramatic word.

You should re-consider being a landlord. You've not bothered to have proper investigations done. Haven't reigned in the letting agent shit stirring about it being your tenants fault and have been determined from the start your tenants should be evicted for something that at worst is an accident.

Yes

Has the kitchen floor been lifted? Under the sink and under the washing machine?

Any investigations done to check for actual leaking?

I do appreciate your advice. You may not have been traumatized but neighbours below are really freaking out, angry and upset. My mind is not clear - a little above shared tenant has admitted to agent it was an accident. Thank you for your advice again.

I do appreciate your advice. You may not have been traumatized but neighbours below are really freaking out, angry and upset. My mind is not clear - a little above shared tenant has admitted to agent it was an accident. Thank you for your advice again.

That they are really freaking out doesn't make it reasonable that they are doing so.

And it should in no way impact how you treat your tenant.

Do you have the money to evict them? What if it has to go to court & get the baliffs in? Its mighty expensive and is this just a one off incident? Have they always been good tenants piror to this?, thats what i would be weighing up when it comes to evicting them.

What exactly has the tenant said? I would be suspicious now but, equally, if the letting agent has backed them into a corner and told them that 4 plumbers have said that it 100% was caused by a bath overflow, they may have tried to remember some small spill to explain it because the letting agent has convinced them that that is the only possible explanation eg it is not unusual to get a small puddle on our tiled floor if you don’t position the shower screen exactly.

TBH, there is still the question of why doesn’t your bath have an overflow that drains fast enough to prevent the bath overflowing if the taps are left running?

I guess if the plug was left in and taps running the whole bath would overflow… or, does a bath even with plug in have overflow that would take all of the water running - I don’t know.

my instinct in all of this is…

• she had an accident - it happens.
• she was /is scared of being evicted so isn’t admitting it.
• she helped with getting plumbers in and communicated with neighbors albeit not in an open enough way that I think some neighbours want.
• she probably feels sick/ awful about situation

vs

• two flats occupants are anxious and living with severe water damage due to accident or incident whatever it is
• they need to dry out their flat
• then they needs to be repairs
• is there structural damage in ceiling, walls, floors, btw the flats?
• are there health risks of mould, mildew
• general anxiety of all of this weighing in their minds

the difference is - if it was me who caused this issue I would be resolving it as I am now via discussion and insurance, at a cost. neighbours would be upset with me. however. I wouldn’t lose my home over this - but the damage could decrease the value of not just my but other properties.

it’s a lot that a small mistake can make so I just need to weigh it all up.

The advice I have had is that courts generally would look on this as a one off thing even with the damage caused - I’ve extended her tenancy twice, inspectations have all gone fine (have them twice a year), and I think section 8 would likely be rejected is what two legal advisors have shared

I guess if the plug was left in and taps running the whole bath would overflow… or, does a bath even with plug in have overflow that would take all of the water running - I don’t know.

And if that happened wig enough water to actually topple over the top of the bath floors would be wet, walls damp, skirtings wet etc...

If it's only water gone through the actual overflow that's then it should drain enough not to flood - if it's gone through the overflow pipe and flooded then there's a leak somewhere in the pipe system.

This would be my instinct as well.

I'd put money on the fact the agent has told them the four plumbers have said it was caused by that, even though the plumbers have not said that.

Yes and that’s what the weird thing is - no damage to or marks of water anywhere - unless tenant caught it after a hour or two, mopped it all up, but didn’t realize the water has leaked into floors below.

IF it was a simple case of - tenant tan bath with plug in went to sleep, woke up, found flooded floors, mopped it up that could explain it and also explain the damage downstairs.

What neighbour just wanted to know was what was it that happened so it could be prevented or investigated and with plumbers that came out all saying similar thing. More investigations for belt and braces to be done but repairs are next on agenda.