Tenant issue

[Rosie8880]

Hi.

Have been renting to a tenant for 2 years and also extended AST for another year ending in summer next year. All good and fine, no hassle. This week two flats below were impacted by water emanating from my flat. The lower of the two has water marks/ damage to one ceiling, the flat below water has leaked to about 3 rooms - ceilings, carpets. plumbers have reported that it’s inconclusive and would need to do further investigations but say likely cause of a bath overflow. Tenant is worried as says this did not happen and is worried about further leaks. My flat is unscathed which I find strange if thankful, considering volume of water thought to have escaped. I will face claims from both flats which will be covered by insurance.

interested to hear what others would do as next steps.

But the plumbers have literally said it's inconclusive. And the lack of water damage in your bathroom suggests it didn't come from the bath.

If the pipe work is at fault then it would be you that should be persona non grata (if anyone must be) not your tenant.

Letting people blame your tenant so openly, and doing so yourself, when there is so far zero evidence of it being their fault is really poor as a landlord. Water travels. The fact your tenant lives directly above them doesn't automatically mean it came from there - especially with no obvious damage in your bathroom.

Threads like this are what gives landlords a bad reputation. Happy to blame tenants for issues that most likely aren't their fault, no human understanding for the possibility of a genuine one-off accident, and happy to hear that neighbours are blaming the tenant for something that probably isn't their responsibility. Considering eviction and leaving them homeless with no evidence. Just vile.

Totally agree with this

Why haven’t your plumbers tried the dye test? Easier way to find source of leak.

Utterly ridiculous to think there would be a bone dry floor with no damage when there was enough water to damage two flats below.
and you are absolutely vile to consider evicting your tenant over this.

I used to live in a flat above a pub.
we had water poor down into them. I had 3 plumbers come and check the bath and toilet to see what the problem was as we had no signs of any issues in our bathroom. One thought it was a leaky toilet, one thought it was external drain and the third one who actually bothered to look under the bath discovered a dislodged pipe which was obviously the culprit.

Quite pleased you’re not my LL to be honest. We had an issue with some damp in our kitchen ceiling (directly below the bathroom) and they thought it might be a minor issue with the external door into the kitchen and did some guttering works. Then we went away for a weekend and came home to the kitchen ceiling having collapsed and the cat being most put out her timed feeder was covered in plaster……..

Turned out the pipe work to the trap under the bath had dislodged some period of time ago (dodgy fittings and well before we moved in) so every time the bath or shower drained it was essentially going into the void between floor and ceiling. Nothing showed at eye level in the bathroom, all looked fine, completely dry - it was underneath that there was a problem.

Our LL’s couldn’t have been more apologetic - I think you need to give yourself a bit of a head wobble to be honest.

BTW I’m also a chartered insurance professional - your policy should include trace and access to source the origin of the leak. If it doesn’t then you’ve cheaped out on it.

You said plumber has stated cause “inconclusive” and “likely” to be a bath overflow. There’s no evidence that this is true, no floorboards ruined-I would stop being a scummy landlord type automatically trying to make a quick buck off your tenant and just go through your insurance and get it investigated. If the insurance investigator confirms bath overflow on account of human error then fair enough-they are responsible for the charge, but until you have concrete evidence they are to blame then it is your responsibility. I wouldn’t assume anything, and I certainly wouldn’t be trying to absolve myself of any potential unreasonable behaviour on mumsnet-I see many of your replies are insinuating you believe the tenant is to blame but you simply don’t know, so do your self-appointed duty and hire an expert.

The plumbers are talking rubbish. There is no way a bath could have overflowed and it not damaged the floor in your bathroom. There would be some evidence.

I can see how there might be little evidence of a leaking pipe under the bath, but not a bath overflow into the room.

And even if the bath did overflow, that means there’s a problem with your overflow as that shouldn’t be possible. I’ve accidentally left baths running too long on a number of occasions in different properties over (many) years and the bath has never spilled over, it just runs down the overflow. So not the tenants fault.

You need to contact your insurers as PPs have said and they will do a proper trace for the leak, not a CBA job from these plumbers.

Thanks all for feedback….

I have had four plumbers sharing the same thing - the water flows downwards & that they may not be evidence - bathroom floor is tiled for eg. Which agree is surprising tbh.

Im not keen on evicting tenant tbh but I do need to consider neighbours, impact on them etc. two homes have been impacted potentially thru carelessness, and it’s not minor damage it’s major damage - five ceilings, two carpets as far as I know atm. Accidents do happen + do appreciate all the feedback - thank you.

do appreciate

I owned a second floor flat in an old Victorian tenement. My living room ceiling (heavily corniced, lathe and plaster) collapsed one Sunday morning which was a shock! Water had been coming down from my upstairs neighbour’s shower which wasn’t properly sealed, obviously for a long time, and eventually, bam. My insurance covered industrial cleaning, work to dry it out, rebuilding and redecorating, and replacement to damaged furniture. I didn’t even think to try and get my neighbour to cover it although he obviously needed remedial work too.

The surveyor (?) who came out at the beginning said water finds its own path, and not always an obvious one. I had had water come through the bathroom ceiling light previously and upstairs man assured me the problem had been resolved after that. (Liar!)

@Rosie8880 I was the tenant in this position and after several floods in downstairs neighbours bathroom (which i was blamed for) the neighbours bathroom ceiling collapsed. Turns out the drain pipe from the bath had come apart and everytime we used the bath (shower was a separate unit) the neighbours got flooded.
If there's no sign of water damage in your flat check the drainpipes and water pipes.

I don’t think you have grounds to evict the tenant for damaging your property/negligence. Or more accurately, you don’t have the evidence.

Damage to property is grounds for eviction under section 8 of the Housing Act 1988 but it is at the discretion of the court.

1. If the bath did overflow (which you don’t know), it is a one off accident, not a pattern of negligence or misuse.
2. The overflow should prevent the bath from overflowing. If it doesn’t, unless the tenant has blocked it, it is your responsibility to have adequate plumbing.
3. Most importantly, you haven’t investigated and undertaken tests to trace if there is a leak. You don’t have proof that there is no leak, only the opinion of plumbers that there is no obvious source of a leak. You have plenty of examples on this thread of leaks that have been missed by multiple plumbers. I am sure your tenant can find a plumber to provide a statement that without testing, there are many types of leak that are not visible without testing.

Of course, until the new laws banning section 21 no fault evictions come in, you could possibly go down that route when the current AST ends or if you have a break clause. That kind of vile behaviour is why the the law has been made.

I don’t understand why you’re even mentioning evicting the tenant when you have no evidence that it’s the tenant’s fault!! You’re being very unfair. And to be honest, even if it was caused by the tenant, accidents happen. As a one-off you should let it go. Obviously if you have a tenant who persistently does stupid/careless things despite being told not to then that’s a different matter entirely.

Just to add to the collection of leak horror stories (this will be my second story for this thread), I came home one Sun night (after a weekend away) and discovered a big wet patch across my living room ceiling. It was late and I decided not to try to wake my upstairs neighbour up but I was round knocking on her door the next morning. No sign of my neighbour. I left a note stuck to her door and it stayed there for 4 days. None of my other neighbours or my managing agent had contact details for her. (Turns out she lived in France most of the time and left spare keys with a friend but hadn’t told anyone).

The wet patch got bigger and bigger and spread across to my light fittings so I didn’t dare use the lights. Still no sign of the neighbour. By the Saturday, I called my Dad (as you do!) and he said that all I could was ring the Police (!). Seemed extreme but I did and they actually sent FOUR policemen out. Must admit that the police seemed to be having a lovely time running up and down my building stairs but given I live in what was then a very rough part of Tower Hamlets, I suspect it was a nice break from stabbings and shootings for them. They said all we could do was break down the door to the flat above me but they weren’t allowed to do that, it had to be the Fire Brigade. So we’re then joined by SIX firemen. The broke down the door of the flat above, went in but couldn’t find any sign of a leak there. They said the next step was to start ripping up the floor (!!) but I said no you can’t do that. 🙄

To cut a very long story short, it turns out the leak was caused by the GROUND floor flat blocking the soil stack and the water had risen up and escaped into the space between my ceiling and the floor of the flat upstairs.

Absolute nightmare. We claimed on the joint building insurance (which took months) but the upstairs neighbour and I didn’t speak for many years afterwards although after that she did at least leave a contact number with the managing agent!

Thank you this is really useful.
Plumbers have said that a bath overflow wouldn’t catch and allow water to flow if taps left on for hours for example - which looking at the size of the damage downstairs is what happened. A bath overflowed and taps left on for hours.
I’m aware that if did go down the court eviction route there is only one incident too.
If I do undertake a trace and it turns out it is tenant neglect - what would your advice be then?

If two homes have below have been impacted presumably there is another flat on the level of yours? Has it been inspected?

Tbh you seem very keen on evicting your tenant. Even if it was a one off accidental thing it would be zero grounds to evict imo (and I'm a Ll). That's what insurance is for, we have precisely because accidents happen sometimes.

Evicting a long term tenant over one thing, that at most is careless, would be incredibly foolish and totally unnecessary.

Especially given there is no actual evidence of it being their fault whatsoever

Don’t the plumbers mean the overflow is leaking? As in water didn’t pour over the sides of the bath, it poured through the overflow hole in the bath, which wasn’t watertight so the water then escaped to the downstairs flats?

That could easily happen without the tenant being aware how much water flowed down the overflow. I would imagine a lot of my deep bath water flows down the overflow, but I actually don’t know and I wouldnt be surprised either way.

Plumbers advising the bath overflowed over top of bath spilling onto floors around…

I find that so unlikely and an easy cop out from plumbers not looking for a hard job. Far more likely it’s the bath pipes that are the problem. So, if the tenant ever has a bath, they are going to be accused of negligently overflowing the bath. Scapegoats are always good, hey!

FWIW I used to rent. In a situation like this I would be petrified if I had accidently overflowed the bath. Petrified that I would be evicted and on the hook for $$$. Apologetic that I had caused so much damage but due to not owning the flat, and the potential of being homeless if evicted would make me I am sure deny responsibility with the consequence of neighbour despising me. I need to assess what’s happened and potentially a fair outcome is - tenant pays excess of any insurance claims coming thru, I confirm that she won’t be evicted but give her a warning.

What kind of flooring is in the bathroom than the bath can overflow do much it can do that much damage yet show no signs of anything on the bathroom floor

I've been wondering whether the plumber has looked under the floorboards of the bathroom in the OP's flat. Is there a separate shower or is the shower over the bath in the flat bathroom.

What about the washing machine - where does the plumbing for that run?

If there was no overflowing bath then it sounds as there there could be a disconnected pipe under the flat floor, above the ceiling of the underneath flat.

When we had a leak from the bathroom into the room below it was actually from the cistern of the toilet. The pipe between the cistern and the toilet pan (old fashioned loo) was too short and has worked loose. It was imperceptible in the bathroom initially, but built up to a bigger problem over time.

@Rosie8880 is your bathroom tiled or floorboards?

Tiling - plumbers have said it’s usual tiles won’t see any damage.

Tiling

Plumbers advising the bath overflowed over top of bath spilling onto floors around…

Without a single hint of damage on the floor or walls in the bathroom?

That's very far fetched compared to a leaking pipe somewhere in the system imo