To think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike? Thread 2

[Locutus2000]

Rolling this over as people still seem to have something to say but no new poll.

Original post

AIBU to think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike?

Last year they got more than anyone else in the NHS along with an improved deal. Nurses and other AHPs received lower rises.

BMA have just announced another 'resident' doctor strike continuing to chase pay restoration to 2008 levels.

Having just had the major win with changes to IMG prioritisation and the clamp-down on PAs it feels a bit tone-deaf and I can't see Streeting going for it.

@poetryandwine PAs out earn doctors. Start at Band 7. Government figures.

Many PAs earn over £60,000, with further enhancements. Doctors basic pay. BMA figures.

It really isn't. People are allowed to have differing opinions. Some posters don't actually work in the nhs either.

Clever woman, @mumsneedwine

This isn’t the first time the text around your posts is different now to what I remember. Perhaps one had best screenshot choice posts?

@mumsneedwine coming out of woodwork today.

Of course it is necessary as I wanted to post it.

Anti-UKMG posts will fill this thread until it gets to 1,000 posts and closes.

It is awful that UKMGs are so reviled in the country that they train in by people on this thread. You should hang your heads in shame.

This is old hat and we’ve been through it before. Many times.

Some PAs out earn some doctors in training. I have no problem with this.

No problem.

@mumsneedwine those doctors 'in their first year of working' have been working for 3 weeks. They can't work independently, have to be supervised. Just getting a medical degree and being able to call themselves doctor does not mean that they are fully trained.

You have been shown many times evidence which suggests that a lot of them never will be fully trained.

The GMC are aware of this. The Times medical school ranking list points out that students should choose a medical school which will help with their career progression. (i.e some won't).

Your problem isn't IMG 's or posters being rude, it's not accepting that those posters are trying g to point out important truths to you. Many people have provided evidence but you have either not read it or been unable to understand it.

My suspicion is that we're now getting a great many short posts and a lot of repetition by certain posters who are embarrassed and want to fill up the thread. I can quite understand that they might want it to end. It really has become truly ridiculous.

Identify one "anti-UKMG" post on this thread - or kindly stop banging on about it.

As usual, you and Mumsneedwine are filling this thread with nonsense. If you think that you have said something worthwhile and others appear to be unconvinced then provide evidence, repetition will do nothing to improve its validity.

Who reviles UKMGs?

If UKMGs aren’t competing well against IMGs we need to figure our why. Sources suggest that UKMGs perform better than IMGs on the MSRA. Are the IMGs getting the jobs truly exceptional?

It is possible both to want success for UKMGs and to want top doctors. The way to achieve this is (a) to improve medical education and (b) to make sure that selection criteria are relevant. An honest, neutrally brokered discussion around Home advantage should be part of this.

Eg some say the points IMGs get for years of attending conferences and such give advantage. Surely one could measure the average number of conferences/year and papers/year to level this up? Are UKMGs performing badly at the clinical assessment? That points to our ME system and should concern us all. I am sure seniority and experience confer one advantage, but a British education and strong acculturation and, allegedly, communications skills should confer another.

Similar comments could be made about the interview.

Wanting the UK to think things through and perhaps improve its processes is hardly reviling UKMGs

Posting the same stupid meme over and over doesn't make it legitimate.

Band 2 is fuck all - if they get a slightly better enhancement on bank holidays so what?

It's comparing it to overall remuneration of doctors that is disingenous as fuck and I'm sick of it.

I certainly won't be rolling this trainwreck over again.

Strongly agree. That comparison is arguably the lowest point on this thread. No-one who makes that comparison has the slightest right to pretend that they have empathy. Quite revolting but the mothers on this thread are coming from the narrowest of middle class perspectives.

They seem completely unaware of their utter disrespect to anyone who isn't a doctor.

Which is ironic since neither of the posters in question are doctors or even have any connection to the medical world.

Copying is a form of flattery. I predicted your group filling up the thread and now there you go.

No embarrassment here. But anyone working with UKMGs and having been so critical about them in a public forum should be embarrassed.

@poetryandwine

Regarding your question at 9.30 or thereabouts, it is very difficult to see the wood for the trees at ground level. The point about investment seems most easily dealt with. Surveys show that the more students appreciate about working in the NHS, the less the idea appeals. Intuitively and anecdotally, motivation then becomes a problem (in addition to issues of prior attainment and training). But doctors who do not progress are not a loss to society any more than a graduate in another field who fails to find employment in it, and applies their generic skills elsewhere. Furthermore, we haven't paid for the training of foreign graduates who may replace them.

Many changes have conspired to shift the ability distribution curve to the left - DEI, Student Satisfaction metrics, managerialism and senior loss of authority/autonomy reducing the appeal of medicine and competition, shortened hours, shortened training, poor retention leading to aggressive medical school expansions - in an increasing downward spiral.

However, at the top end of ability, I am sure nothing has changed; and before the floodgates opened we had ways into medicine that worked very well for a relatively small number of people who for one reason or another did not do very well at the end of secondary education or made the wrong choices or did another degree and had a change of mind, they will still find their way through the system.

@PurpleFairyLights

As I said, identify one "anti-UKMG" post on this thread - or kindly stop banging on about it.

Are you joking? There are so many. What about the other threads?

I am thinking of doing a compilation of all the derogatory remarks about UKMGs and UK medical schools from this thread and the other two threads about unemployed UKMGs.

Will be interesting reading...

Thank you for this post.

Regarding your very fair point that we get the benefit of IMGs without paying for them: for those on training pathways, PP have mentioned that their visas will not permit them to stay.

If they progress satisfactorily, can they compete for consultant and GP posts? Would these not allow for settlement?

Are you joking? There are so many. What about the other threads as well.

@mumsneedwine Can you believe this post?

Meanwhile the UK is spending 250k to train UK doctors that are going to be employed.

It is not a "fair point". Also there is no guarantee that the IMGs will stay in the UK after becoming a GP or consultant.

The NHS does not have the resources to train thousands of IMGs every year.

The UK needs workforce security in the form of employing the doctors that it trained at great expense.

Once UKMGs take priority IMGs can apply for any vacancies not taken up by UKMGs. Just like 195 other countries.

@mumsneedwine these posts are very similar. Will DM you.

It certainly is fair to observe that we have not paid for IMG training.

I am the one who wants to see a proper study of the competing claims here, remember?

There is no guarantee that a UKMG will stay in the UK either. The more settled anyone gets - with age, DC in school, partner’s career, etc - the more likely they are to stay. As you have not denied that IMG who complete relevant training may compete for GP and consultant posts, with the resulting pathway to settlement, my working assumption is that they are free to do so.

The original concerns remain, but the comments from PP about their visas running out become irrelevant.