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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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To think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike? Thread 2

1000 replies

Locutus2000 · 22/07/2025 11:23

Rolling this over as people still seem to have something to say but no new poll.

Original post

AIBU to think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike?

Last year they got more than anyone else in the NHS along with an improved deal. Nurses and other AHPs received lower rises.

BMA have just announced another 'resident' doctor strike continuing to chase pay restoration to 2008 levels.

Having just had the major win with changes to IMG prioritisation and the clamp-down on PAs it feels a bit tone-deaf and I can't see Streeting going for it.

To think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike? | Mumsnet

Last year they got more than anyone else in the NHS along with an improved deal. Nurses and other AHPs received lower rises. BMA have just announced...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5369651-to-think-the-bma-have-misjudged-with-another-doctors-strike

OP posts:
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36
Sevillian · 19/08/2025 13:36

No nerve touched if you’re referring to me. Your comments clearly contravened the MN guidelines.

mumsneedwine · 19/08/2025 13:43

Not sure how. Thought some definitions might be helpful to others.

Marchesman · 19/08/2025 22:48

@Needmoresleep

I wouldn't call that an irrelevant anecdote, medical schools with higher NSS-feedback scores have less good postgraduate exam results.

Marchesman · 20/08/2025 00:03

OneMorePiece · 19/08/2025 12:21

@Marchesman or anyone else with statistics and actual evidence to support the link between Maths ability above GCSE level and success in passing Royal Colleges' exams. TheFancyDuck has not replied. I know some others have given their opinions but maybe Marchesman or someone else can come up with the evidence to support TheFancyDuck's claim in relation to postgraduate exams? I personally think that a student should do a subject they enjoy as a third A level. For posters other than those regularly posting on this thread, it's important to address this issue so that they don't feel that their DCs have to do 3 science A levels if DCs enjoy a third non-science subject. Before anyone suggests doing 4 levels or more, that's not available in many schools.

I am not aware of any papers that break down prior attainment to a point that would directly answer your question, but the following may help.

https://royalsociety.org/news-resources/projects/mathematical-futures/

https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1741-7015-11-242

If it were me, I would be practising deferred gratification at this point, and choose the course that would best achieve my goals.

Mathematical Futures programme | Royal Society

The Mathematical Futures programme offers a new approach to mathematical and data education that provides a better mathematical education for everyone, from the everyday needs of citizens to the brilliant academic mathematicians of the future.

https://royalsociety.org/news-resources/projects/mathematical-futures/

Needmoresleep · 20/08/2025 08:37

OneMorePiece, I think the causology on why medical schools don't require maths is not clear. It might be because maths is not needed, but it could equally be because students aren't offering it and post-expansion medical schools need to be able to take students without maths,hoping that UCAT will sort out those without sufficient science aptitude. I also suspect that some of the less selective medical schools will have had to water down the maths content on their courses.

There are a huge number of careers within medicine. If you want to go into psychiatry, unless you want to go into research, you probably don't need much more than a broad understanding of statistics. (Something often missing on MN.) If you are interested in radiology then both maths and physics will be useful.

My advice would be to start from the other end. If maths A level is going to be a stretch, don't take it. Maths A level is hard work if you don't have an aptitude. Focus on getting a good grade in chemistry, and pick a third subject that you enjoy. You might have to work quite hard on the first year maths course, but you won't be alone. However if you enjoy maths and could be expected to get an A without too much effort, then take it. Maths is useful and underpins a lot of science and research. Some intercalations require maths.

mumsneedwine · 20/08/2025 08:53

But no Uni needs maths, not just the new ones. So are they all 'watering' down the maths ? Or maybe they just know it's not required and other skills are more important. Stats is in GCSE maths now and can easily be done by computer, hence the ability of humanity and English students to produce high quality research too.

All Unis need pretty much the same grades to get in. A few with A star requirements, but they are not exclusively older Unis. Unless you have gone to every Uni, audited their course and tracked the outcomes of every graduate over many years, I'm not sure how these ridiculous assertions are being made. Just seems like some weird snobbery.

In this country, foundation is random allocation, and speciality training does not even ask for the Uni you attended. Nor do JCF type jobs. Being a good doctors is about so much more than being purely academic, hence the introduction of MMIs.

Needmoresleep · 20/08/2025 12:21

mumsneedwine. You are like a dog with a bone. And no need to twist my words. Yes it may be that no University needs maths, but maths A level is helpful. University level maths can move at a terrific pace. DD with another in her group (who had had an Oxford offer but a difficult Y13) ended up giving quite a lot of support to the others.

Where we seem to have sliding doors is that you are focussed on getting in, whereas others are trying to suggest that education is rarely wasted, and that good proficiency in maths can open doors. DD took five A levels, and still had sufficient headroom to play an active role in school life, and do plenty outside as well. Her extra two (physics and electronics) helped her on her radiology placement and during her engineering intercalation. It has meant that she has been invited to approach a research team should she ever want to take a PhD and means that if she wanted to leave medicine it would be a fairly easy switch. Her friend, who is a seriously gifted mathematician, took double maths and a epidemiology intercalation.

Jobs vary. Some will suit a good mathematician/scientist with an excellent memory and who likes being busy but who is also dyslexic. Others will suit those who write well but may prefer a calmer environment.

We seem to be back to "a doctor is a doctor is a doctor". In one way its true, but in other ways it isn't The NHS may think that they have been clever by recruiting from Nigeria and Bangladesh rather than the UK, and picking up doctors with more experience and qualifications. Some of us are arguing that UK trained doctors bring plenty to the table, including cultural understanding, knowledge of the NHS, higher retention levels, less additional support for family dependents, and a more consistent level of medical education. I personally think it is shocking that good UK graduates are forced to find work abroad when the NHS is actively recruiting from abroad. (And bemused by what seem to be a spate of very late F3 style vacancies for immediate start as if those recruited did not bother to turn up.) DD and her friends would like to see a return to merit. That their strong appraisals and good references actually count for something. I would like to see the reinstatement of the Resident Market Labour Test and priority given to suitably qualified applicants already in the country.

I think this detachment from merit is part of the reason for Resident doctor militancy. They ticked the boxes so have jobs. They know that there are a million problems within the NHS, some of which need money to solve. They know there is a real problem with doctor unemployment and with strong performers going from a temporary F3 to F4 to F5 hoping to eventually get a training place. But do they care. Many have no interest in working longer term in the UK so want more money now. Others, as you infamously boasted during the first strike, headed for the beach.

Marchesman · 20/08/2025 12:49

mumsneedwine · 20/08/2025 08:53

But no Uni needs maths, not just the new ones. So are they all 'watering' down the maths ? Or maybe they just know it's not required and other skills are more important. Stats is in GCSE maths now and can easily be done by computer, hence the ability of humanity and English students to produce high quality research too.

All Unis need pretty much the same grades to get in. A few with A star requirements, but they are not exclusively older Unis. Unless you have gone to every Uni, audited their course and tracked the outcomes of every graduate over many years, I'm not sure how these ridiculous assertions are being made. Just seems like some weird snobbery.

In this country, foundation is random allocation, and speciality training does not even ask for the Uni you attended. Nor do JCF type jobs. Being a good doctors is about so much more than being purely academic, hence the introduction of MMIs.

Again, your personal reality is of little value. No "Uni" needs maths - but any clinician who ever makes a diagnosis, or treatment decision, or reads a research paper certainly does.

Since you conspicuously do not read research papers and may also have issues with maths, the following is in plain English, from McManus who has "tracked the outcomes of every graduate over many years."

"A common criticism of the use of examinations in selection and for professional progression is that being good at examinations only predicts the ability to be good at further examinations. However, that argument ignores the content of medical school and professional examinations. It might be argued that examinations such as clinical Finals or MRCP(UK) are nothing but arbitrary tests of irrelevant knowledge, but a content appraisal of the questions makes that unlikely in the extreme. It may be that being a good doctor does not require one to know all of the material included in Finals and post-graduate examinations, but it would seem to be a difficult and perverse argument that clinical knowledge is not only irrelevant to medical practice, but also that a lack of such knowledge makes for better clinical practice."

ThePure · 20/08/2025 17:25

I went to Cambridge donkeys years ago without maths A level although did have all the other sciences and a language. I can’t say I have missed it even when I did my PhD. Statistics is what you really need to understand research papers and I didn’t find that hard to learn.

I do think it’s odd that you can now get in to do medicine with no science A levels at all. Chemistry used to be compulsory and most people had 3 sciences and/ or maths. Medicine is science based and how you would manage all the pharmacology and physiology without any science background I do not know. Plus you should enjoy science I would have thought or why choose medicine at all.

I slightly take umbrage at the idea that psychiatrists are less likely than other Drs to need maths/ science as well. A lot of psychiatry (as opposed to psychology) is pharmacology and neuroscience. I think we need it just as much as any medic and possibly more than most surgeons!

Needmoresleep · 20/08/2025 18:11

Sorry, I was just trying to think of something less technical than radiology. Surgery did occur, but I am more wary of surgeons.

Maths creeps into everything. You may not "need" it but it is usually useful. DD was at home during her engineering intercalation and it was interesting how often she was able to turn to her brother, at the time taking a PhD in mathematical economics. Stuff around intercepting the data that came from her research project, programming etc. Maths A level is a chance to develop problem-solving thinking skills useful in medicine.

Buzzcock · 20/08/2025 20:22

Question for all the doctors here who will know more about this dataset than I do (particularly @Marchesman as you seem knowledgeable on these matters)

The GMC register shows the university of qualification for every registered doctor. If you then take out those who are GPs or already specialists, you’re then left with those in-training and those not in training, for each university.

My question is this - if you take the number of those in training as a % of the total of non-GP and non-specialists for that university, is that a reasonable dataset to use to compare outcomes from different universities? Some of the newer universities have much smaller numbers so probably shouldn’t be compared but the results from the others are interesting (St George’s medical school was highest at 68%, followed by Imperial and Keele; lowest was QUB at 50%, which I was surprised about but it may be due to doctors returning to the ROI and registering there instead for specialty training ?)

mids2019 · 21/08/2025 06:46

Maybe the argument about maths is one of inclusivity. The standard A levels for those that wished to do medicine or a scientific career was maths, physics and chemistry. This was late 90s. private school. We had many of our cohort go on to do medicine and it seemed a well trodden maybe exclusive path for all those students (and parents) who wanted a doctor in the family.

Move onto 2025 and the diversity and incluaivity are phrases you here all the time in a modern trust setting and this philosophy is one that remains in my opinion contentious in terms of how to maintain standards in a range of professions.

May be maths is not taught brilliantly at 6th form in some state schools as people brilliant at teaching maths migrate to more renumerative careers rather than teaching? For schools where there is a battle getting girls to do STEM any way is there a desire to not prevent these girls from never having a career such as medicine as an option.

mumsneedwine · 21/08/2025 09:08

Maths is the most popular A level at all types of school. More girls take it than boys.

I do wonder why people not involved seem to know better than every medical school in the country as to what is required from students. If they all don't need maths, maybe it's because it's not needed ? Or are they all wrong ?

mumsneedwine · 21/08/2025 09:12

@ThePure I have no idea how Newcastle do it either with no science A levels. But it works for them (am assuming they are not seen as a new, less valuable, medical school as was formed in 1834). I trust the staff to know their jobs.

Needmoresleep · 21/08/2025 10:08

Buzzcock · 20/08/2025 20:22

Question for all the doctors here who will know more about this dataset than I do (particularly @Marchesman as you seem knowledgeable on these matters)

The GMC register shows the university of qualification for every registered doctor. If you then take out those who are GPs or already specialists, you’re then left with those in-training and those not in training, for each university.

My question is this - if you take the number of those in training as a % of the total of non-GP and non-specialists for that university, is that a reasonable dataset to use to compare outcomes from different universities? Some of the newer universities have much smaller numbers so probably shouldn’t be compared but the results from the others are interesting (St George’s medical school was highest at 68%, followed by Imperial and Keele; lowest was QUB at 50%, which I was surprised about but it may be due to doctors returning to the ROI and registering there instead for specialty training ?)

Edited

Not a doctor but there will be more to unpicking the data than this.

QUB is a case in point. It has a good reputation for teaching in quite a traditional manner. Numbers of international students are capped and NI students don't get grants to study elsewhere in the UK. So a high proportion of NI students, presumably representing the full range including those who have excelled in NIs well regarded secondary schools. Many will stay in the Province for F1/F2 and want to continue their careers there.

Health is devolved, so different parts of the UK have different F1/F2 contracts. England has an updated one with fewer hours, more support and dedicated time for personal development. NI still uses the old 2005 one, and unlike some English NHS Trusts it is night shifts from day one. From posts on this thread, the latter should be an advantage. More real hands experience is arguably what , doctors setting out need.

Unfortunately immigration policy is not devolved, nor is much of the selection for Specialist training. So the young doctor in NI who is working 60 hour weeks in busy hospitals (and the health service there really is under siege) is having to compete for training against students from overseas who may have been able to access two years of private college to gain advance qualifications and support for CV enhancing (and points gaining) accomplishments. If the selection process included scoring that took into account appraisals or references it might well be a different matter. Similarly it is difficult to compete with overseas agency supported staff for F3 style vacancies which would allow them more time to prepare. Frustratingly then the no show rate seems quite high and the retention rate low, so NI is left with vacancies at F3 level and all the way through the training path, exacerbating some shockingly long waiting lists. Consultants clearly find it frustrating that they are having to cover for staff shortages whilst writing references for good F2s who are having to go overseas to find work.

(This shows up the the stats Marchesman provided. Even in 2023 the number of doctors in NI who are in their 20s is falling. This statistic can be expected to rise as the problem becomes more acute. Overseas doctors appointed to F3 type positions tend to have more experience and be older.)

It would be unwise to use headline statistics to suggest that QUB is the weakest medical school. And indeed I don't think trying to identify the "best" medical school is particularly helpful. It is often about best fit, and perhaps acknowledging that some will attract the most ambitious and determined. So courses are five, others are six, but some of those on a five year course will have intercalated for a year.

There are also very different jobs. One of DDs friends has found a temporary cover role in geriatrics. Mainly assessing for discharge which needs a doctor and presumably being on hand in case of an emergency. She is ambitious and the slow pace does not suit her at all, but perhaps suits someone who wants a local regular hours job. In the same way that not all teachers want to become heads. Focussing on training high flying potential academic consultants when there are plenty of jobs that don't require as much (and may require other strengths including softer or organisational skills) would be silly. And I really don't understand this concern about weaker medical schools when rather than recruit our own we are bringing in large numbers from overseas, some who have taken alternative exams with higher pass rates, and despite plenty of anecdotal evidence, and indeed metrics such as the number of upheld complaints, that suggests that medical education in the weakest of overseas medical schools is not better than the weakest of ours.

Needmoresleep · 21/08/2025 10:10

mumsneedwine · 21/08/2025 09:08

Maths is the most popular A level at all types of school. More girls take it than boys.

I do wonder why people not involved seem to know better than every medical school in the country as to what is required from students. If they all don't need maths, maybe it's because it's not needed ? Or are they all wrong ?

Causology...

With the greatest respect, and as explained above, not requiring maths does not mean that maths is not useful.

Sevillian · 21/08/2025 10:18

It also doesn't say anything about the number of students who do nevertheless offer Maths as one of their subjects.

mumsneedwine · 21/08/2025 10:59

Lots do offer Maths. Mainly because if you've a science bias you probably prefer maths to an essay subject. Many Unis now quite like a 3rd non science option. Suppose it shows a rounded individual.

I just don't see how it's useful though if Med Schools don't require it. Surely they know what they are doing ? Some don't need Chemistry as they know they can teach enough in first year. Some don't need Biology, for same reason.

They all seem to educate doctors. Again, if people think some are sub standard they really should be doing something about that.

Needmoresleep · 21/08/2025 11:08

mumsneedwine · 21/08/2025 10:59

Lots do offer Maths. Mainly because if you've a science bias you probably prefer maths to an essay subject. Many Unis now quite like a 3rd non science option. Suppose it shows a rounded individual.

I just don't see how it's useful though if Med Schools don't require it. Surely they know what they are doing ? Some don't need Chemistry as they know they can teach enough in first year. Some don't need Biology, for same reason.

They all seem to educate doctors. Again, if people think some are sub standard they really should be doing something about that.

Mumsneedwine. Time to agree to differ.

DS had the same when reading economics. The LSE cannot demand double maths because not all schools offer it. Some of his peers had self taught FM to AS level but they still faced a cliff once at University. Half the content of a FM paper was delivered in a single lecture. The advice DS had had was to do as much maths as possible at school, a more supportive setting than University. As I said before, the two in DDs first year medical school tutor group who had strong maths did have to reach out to support those without the A level. They all got there in the end so technically it was not "needed", but it would have been useful. Dd's intercalation, required maths.

Sevillian · 21/08/2025 11:13

Of course lots offer Maths.

Oxford doesn't 'require' Biology but 97% of students offer it and Oxford warns that not taking Biology can cause difficulties for students on a medical course.

All medical schools appear to produce graduates but according to the protest movement on these threads, many seem to be have no real prospects of a medical career. And the weakest will be the ones with the sketchiest scientific backgrounds - they'll be the first to go.

Sevillian · 21/08/2025 11:14

Crossed with the post above.

mumsneedwine · 21/08/2025 11:15

@Needmoresleep can totally see your point. It's a tough one to quantify as there are no stats on starting A levels and later outcomes. Might ask a few Unis if they keep those as would be interesting.

But as Unis don't ask for it, and are v happy to accept students with all sorts of combinations, that's what we will continue to advise. My DD tells me she only used her A level maths while doing her dissertation as there was lots of stats. Her Cambs friend said she never used it at all.

Sevillian · 21/08/2025 11:17

My Oxford DC both certainly found an aptitude for maths fairly key.

mumsneedwine · 21/08/2025 11:18

@Sevillian I think it's time for this protest movement to do something outside of MN. If you feel so strongly about medical schools not being good enough then try and effect change. You'll need evidence but if have it then try and make things better. Students are not at fault, people training them are !

Sevillian · 21/08/2025 11:19

(Although neither took it at A level. Three sciences plus a humanities subject each (one History, one English)).

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