Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

To think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike? Thread 2

1000 replies

Locutus2000 · 22/07/2025 11:23

Rolling this over as people still seem to have something to say but no new poll.

Original post

AIBU to think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike?

Last year they got more than anyone else in the NHS along with an improved deal. Nurses and other AHPs received lower rises.

BMA have just announced another 'resident' doctor strike continuing to chase pay restoration to 2008 levels.

Having just had the major win with changes to IMG prioritisation and the clamp-down on PAs it feels a bit tone-deaf and I can't see Streeting going for it.

To think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike? | Mumsnet

Last year they got more than anyone else in the NHS along with an improved deal. Nurses and other AHPs received lower rises. BMA have just announced...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5369651-to-think-the-bma-have-misjudged-with-another-doctors-strike

OP posts:
Thread gallery
36
ThePure · 18/08/2025 23:30

BTW I have no opinion on new or old medical schools and little interest in their A levels. I take trainees as I find them and am impressed by those with a decent work ethic, quick to learn, humble enough to take on feedback and caring so that they put patients at the centre of things and go the extra mile. I like those who speak up and can have a good intellectual debate but it’s not as essential as the other qualities. I’ve had some less than impressive Oxbridge grads and others with lower academic credentials who I thought were better Drs.

Sevillian · 18/08/2025 23:30

ThePure well thanks to the supremely gauche negotiating skills of the BMA leaders, the opportunity to make some gains on student debt forgiveness may well have been lost. That would be a pay rise for the doctors with the least privileged backgrounds. Possibly those leading the negotiations aren't too worried about that constituency though. I've rarely seen such a poverty of acumen, just bleating on in front of the cameras about F1 pay and fecking pay erosion. Really painful to watch, when some real gains for the least cosseted could have been won. Infuriating.

mumsneedwine · 19/08/2025 08:19

And again, it's ok to disagree. Again, not sure why insults are needed, but it seems the only way some people know how to communicate.

Not sure how anyone knows what's going on in negotiations between BMA and Wes but maybe someone on here is also involved in the talks along with all their other expertise.

And I'm glad The Pure has stated that they take all
doctors as they find them, and I think this is probably the majority. Not sure why you'd even ask where someone went to Uni ?

And I wasn't referring to you so not sure why you think I was @ThePure? Ladder pulling has been v clearly shown by some, who have promoted PAs over resident doctors, not wanting to train them as they rotate. Been v clearly shown by the RCollrges pre Leng. They are all back tracking madly now as worried about their jobs.

Sevillian · 19/08/2025 08:29

Of course senior doctors take their trainees as they find them. That should be a given. But that is an entirely different thing from the point made by a number of posters that certain unis produce graduates who are significantly more likely to make it through to trainee. This is a fact and has been met with howls of fury. Admittedly it flies directly in the face of the advice that mumsneedwine has been giving on her application threads for so long which is why I assume she objects to it so much. So, not the same point at all.

Sevillian · 19/08/2025 08:35

As far as comments about the BMA negotiations go, it’s really not hard to have a reasonable understanding of what’s going on by reading and listening to the media, watching the car crash interviews and talking to doctors. To clarify: ‘Wes’ has not asked me to help him speak to the BMA. I really don’t believe he needs any help.

ThePure · 19/08/2025 09:20

I thought you were referring to me because it was me who made a flippant jokey comment that I would not sign off striking Drs which you have cited as an example of out of date ladder pulling Drs although it was clearly a joke and I immediately clarified that.

Senior Drs aren’t really in a position to ‘refuse to train’ FYs or to choose PAs. We usually are not in charge of who is allocated to work on our wards/ in our teams. I will train whoever is there to train. My current job is not allocated any trainees. If I was I would train them. The fact of the matter is however that with short rotations and lots of time away from the ward for on call shifts, time off after on call shifts (excessive in my view) study leave and protected training time my contact time with trainees is now much less than it used to be whereas PAs tend to be present and therefore able to use that contact time. It’s also about who seizes the opportunities that are there. If anyone asks me for a shadowing day or whatever I’ll always agree.

mumsneedwine · 19/08/2025 09:36

@ThePure I wasn't referring to you at all. Another poster said they would not sign off trainees as well - I saw your retraction.
PAs are present (it's not like doctors want to rotate every 4-6 months !)but they should be doing the ASSISTANT job they are trained for. Not on the doctor rota, in surgery etc., that should be the doctors. And doctors only. But Leng has resolved this so should be the end to Assistants working outside safe scope. Anyone not complying with these rules negates their insurance now.

Why they are paid £10,000 more on day 1 is still a mystery. And still earn more 7 years later.

Sevillian · 19/08/2025 09:45

mumsneedwine no other doctor made the same comment. Although you're welcome to prove me wrong.

mumsneedwine · 19/08/2025 09:54

You've memorised the whole 2 threads I see. Amazing skills ! 😂

mumsneedwine · 19/08/2025 09:55

Another poster agreed with ThePure and said it was a really good idea. No idea why. Seemed a really stupid idea likely to get you fired 🤷‍♀️

Sevillian · 19/08/2025 09:57

I’m not infallible any longer but I have one of those memories yes. Have done all my life. Most of my DC have the same. It’s extremely useful.

As I say, you’re welcome to find the comment but you’ll struggle.

mumsneedwine · 19/08/2025 10:04

Some of us have jobs so I'm afraid I'm a little busy today. Again, we can agree to disagree.

Sevillian · 19/08/2025 10:34

It's a fact mumsneedwine, not a matter of opinion. You clearly intended to reference ThePure so just own it rather than inventing stuff.

Marchesman · 19/08/2025 11:43

"We can agree to disagree"

I hope your protégés are not tempted to try that in postgraduate examinations. Oh, wait ....

OneMorePiece · 19/08/2025 12:21

OneMorePiece · 12/08/2025 19:21

Are there any statistics to back up your opinion that Maths above GCSE level is needed? Would be interested in actual evidence, rather than anecdote, to show the correlation between Maths ability (above GCSE level) and how the Royal College exams uses it, as you say, to 'weed out the worst ones later?'

@Marchesman or anyone else with statistics and actual evidence to support the link between Maths ability above GCSE level and success in passing Royal Colleges' exams. TheFancyDuck has not replied. I know some others have given their opinions but maybe Marchesman or someone else can come up with the evidence to support TheFancyDuck's claim in relation to postgraduate exams? I personally think that a student should do a subject they enjoy as a third A level. For posters other than those regularly posting on this thread, it's important to address this issue so that they don't feel that their DCs have to do 3 science A levels if DCs enjoy a third non-science subject. Before anyone suggests doing 4 levels or more, that's not available in many schools.

mumsneedwine · 19/08/2025 12:30

Sevillian · 19/08/2025 10:34

It's a fact mumsneedwine, not a matter of opinion. You clearly intended to reference ThePure so just own it rather than inventing stuff.

😂😂 ah so now you're a mind reader too. Your skills have no limits.

mumsneedwine · 19/08/2025 12:32

Marchesman · 19/08/2025 11:43

"We can agree to disagree"

I hope your protégés are not tempted to try that in postgraduate examinations. Oh, wait ....

I hope my students use it in lots of situations, not sure why they'd use it in an exam though ? But in a debate it's a fairly standard comment when at an impasse. Or do you just continue to argue until everyone else gives in ? Like a toddler ?

mumsneedwine · 19/08/2025 12:35

@OneMorePiece all you have to do is look at each unis admissions requirements. Not one needs 3 science A levels, and only a handful of Cambs colleges want maths. Think that tells you all you need to know about how valuable it is. Weirdly I think the teachers at Med Schools know best how to educate future doctors.

Needmoresleep · 19/08/2025 12:41

Marchesman · 18/08/2025 16:37

@Needmoresleep The other poster was correct about 1) and wrong about 2) as you will see if you look at the links that I provided.

You will also see from the survey of medical students, that before they have even qualified, more than 80% are dissatisfied at the prospect of working in the NHS and more than 50% have decided not to pursue speciality training after F2.

GMC application data show that when the time comes, almost exactly the same percentage of F2s do not apply for training posts.

Marchesman, Interesting statistics.

That said, I could not find anything that gave the number of applicants per place. for locally employed doctors. This is where this years problem seemed to lie. Even if others see it as a form of laziness, it is inevitable that there is less motivation for a F2 to apply for a job if it will attract several hundred, even thousands of applicants, especially if weight will be given to experience and further qualifications. And this is before you add in the practicalities when applications close within a few hours. Applicants represented by an overseas agency who do the legwork for you have a head start.

Your statistics did not show this year, when the impact of opening up NHS jobs worldwide really started to impact UK graduates employment prospects. They do however show the start of a trend to rapidly increase the number of IMGs. One interesting statistic was that where DD works the proportion of doctors employed who were in their 20s fell by 11% in the five years between 2019-2023. Despite an expansion of medical school places. From what I hear it will fall still further in 2025. There didn't seem to be many jobs they, and those from earlier years, could apply to. Other movements like the increase in doctors in their 30s, the number from overseas and a large increase (59% over five years) in the numbers of ethnic minority doctors seems to confirm the F2 belief that jobs were being filled by overseas agencies and not advertised to them.

This thread constantly confuses two issues. A lack of training posts and a lack of jobs. Lots of stuff about most UK medical graduates not being good enough (or not having gone to a good enough medical school) to become consultants. The lack of training posts is a given. In DDs deanery so few get through that it has become a much longer term aspiration, not something you normally achieve during F2. Instead you need short term contracts to give you the time to take part in the arms race of exam marks and CV enhancements. It is the lack of short term contracts that is killer, and causing many to accept that if they want to be doctors they have to go overseas. And presumably causing them to be negative about working for the NHS.

Headline data rarely tells the whole picture. To understand what is actually going on you normally need to drill down. What seems clear is that the NHS makes little effort to retain or motivate staff, including those who are just coming to the end of F2 and should be the future backbone of a national health service. Access to training is a whole separate issue. But why, when the statistics show that there is widespread overseas recruitment should it be so difficult for F2s to just find a job.

  • The off-putting numbers applying for each position is one obvious hurdle.
  • The timing is another. It appears that a host of F3 jobs appeared two weeks before F2s faced unemployment. Why so late. An employer wanting to retain good staff should surely recognise that good staff also want certainty. (Though the trend to adding NHS Foundation experience as a job requirement is a positive step.)
  • NHS bank. DD should not have to wait over a month from first application to be signed up, especially when a department is keen to give her as many shifts as she wants, and not be able to find out why there is such a delay. My London neighbour confirms this is par for the course, whilst the MNetter I quoted earlier tells me that in her son's Trust you have to wait three months after leaving F2 before you are allowed to apply for NHS Bank. The NHS clearly don't understand that recently finished F2s need continuity of employment and NHS Bank is the obvious way to deliver this.
  • This weird reliance on agencies. DD is now being put forward for two jobs. One a good regular hours general medicine type role, perfect for providing the time to prepare for a training application. The second, her dream F3 role in the area she wants to specialise in. She will know within the week for almost immediate start. The agency are confident, given her solid experience and strong references that she will get one if not both. So why does it have to be last minute. Why do you need to be signed up to a private agency (in the UK or overseas) to have a shot at attractive NHS roles.

So a perfectly capable doctor who is more likely to find a developmental role, that can be the launch pad for a training application in Australia. Her friend who also plans to go to Australia did apply for training but did not get through. Others who have already left. They wanted careers, not necessarily leading to being a consultant. Just good jobs in medicine. All the evidence, including the statistics that demonstrate the massive growth in numbers of overseas qualified doctors and the increasing numbers of UK trained doctors going overseas, is that the NHS prefers to recruit from Africa and Asia and has little interest in retaining those that qualified under their own system.

If you were one of the post-F2s how would you respond to the survey?

(An irrelevant anecdote. The LSE always came bottom of student satisfaction surveys, so much so that the Government had to abandon the idea of student satisfaction as a possible metric when considering grant funding. Why? In part because it had become a matter of pride for LSE students that they went to the "toughest" University in Britain and thrived. Online surveys only tell you so much. To be meaningful they need to be backed up with further in depth research to help confirm causology.)

Sevillian · 19/08/2025 12:47

mumsneedwine · 19/08/2025 12:30

😂😂 ah so now you're a mind reader too. Your skills have no limits.

I’m inferring your intention from the fact that one only poster made the comment referenced by you. V v simple.

Sevillian · 19/08/2025 12:52

It’s refreshing to see so many smart toddlers on this thread (well, at least two named officially) who appear able to understand the data and its implications and contextualise it in a way which appears to wholly pass the adult by 👍

OneMorePiece · 19/08/2025 13:00

mumsneedwine · 19/08/2025 12:35

@OneMorePiece all you have to do is look at each unis admissions requirements. Not one needs 3 science A levels, and only a handful of Cambs colleges want maths. Think that tells you all you need to know about how valuable it is. Weirdly I think the teachers at Med Schools know best how to educate future doctors.

Yes, that's exactly what I thought. I agree with you in relation to medical school admissions. It's just that a few on this thread keep making assertions to the contrary with so much confidence but have not produced the statistics or evidence to support their claims. In particular in relation to information I have requested: Maths above GCSE level and the numbers passing medical school. Marchesman comes up with a lot of links so perhaps can enlighten readers of this thread on these points too if TheFancyDuck and Oddsandelsewhere can't back up their claims

mumsneedwine · 19/08/2025 13:08

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

mumsneedwine · 19/08/2025 13:09

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

mumsneedwine · 19/08/2025 13:21

Oooh touched a nerve there. Whoops.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.