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To think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike? Thread 2

1000 replies

Locutus2000 · 22/07/2025 11:23

Rolling this over as people still seem to have something to say but no new poll.

Original post

AIBU to think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike?

Last year they got more than anyone else in the NHS along with an improved deal. Nurses and other AHPs received lower rises.

BMA have just announced another 'resident' doctor strike continuing to chase pay restoration to 2008 levels.

Having just had the major win with changes to IMG prioritisation and the clamp-down on PAs it feels a bit tone-deaf and I can't see Streeting going for it.

To think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike? | Mumsnet

Last year they got more than anyone else in the NHS along with an improved deal. Nurses and other AHPs received lower rises. BMA have just announced...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5369651-to-think-the-bma-have-misjudged-with-another-doctors-strike

OP posts:
Thread gallery
36
ShellacofChopin · 08/08/2025 23:12

Sevillian · 08/08/2025 22:46

I think that you may lack analytical skills ShellacofChopin. And please at least quote what I've said correctly. As I said, I never referred to Bs. You wrongly claimed that I did - very different.

More ad hominem and pedantry? I quoted you verbatim in my last post. It doesn't take a genius to work out that if a standard offer is A A A and you are talking about the least competitive medical schools accepting lower that has to be offers of Bs. What else would they be accepting? Tesco Clubcard vouchers?

Sevillian · 08/08/2025 23:14

mumsneedwine · 08/08/2025 23:08

@Sevillian ah sweetie, I use a generic email. V easy to do. Would you like a copy ? It's completely free. Or do you have a better version as a WP/admissions expert ?

Hahahaha 'sweetie'. Oh dear.

It would be perfectly possible to distribute this absurd spreadsheet without insisting that posters give you their personal email address.

Sevillian · 08/08/2025 23:15

ShellacofChopin · 08/08/2025 23:12

More ad hominem and pedantry? I quoted you verbatim in my last post. It doesn't take a genius to work out that if a standard offer is A A A and you are talking about the least competitive medical schools accepting lower that has to be offers of Bs. What else would they be accepting? Tesco Clubcard vouchers?

I mean I'll take pedantry, in the sense that I never said B grades were standard, yet you somehow fabricated that I did. Your verbatim quote does not mention B grades.

PurpleFairyLights · 08/08/2025 23:17

mumsneedwine · 08/08/2025 23:09

@Sevillian ??? Why did I not nearly make it ? As I have a list of delegates I'm now curious which one was you. As no one said anything against new medical schools when there. Did you lose your voice ?

I wonder why? Keyboard warriors are handy with the insults when sitting at their desks but in real life would not dare show their ignorant attitudes.

ShellacofChopin · 08/08/2025 23:21

Okay so what exactly did you mean if it wasn't B grades? Which specific grades and which specific medical schools? If you are such an expert, surely you would just know and be confident enough to share.

Sevillian · 08/08/2025 23:21

My own view is that entry to medical school is far too easy at the moment and that without rigorous interviews along the academic Oxford and Cambridge lines (after which AAA would be fine), we're doomed to a tsunami of very average medical school graduates who only scraped AAA despite a perfectly good education at a leafy comp/ grammar/ decent independent. AstarAstarA might cut the mustard for most of these applicants but AAA is an absurdly low bar without further serious filters. And yes, I do know about UCAT, strangely, before you tell me how difficult it is.

mumsneedwine · 08/08/2025 23:23

@Sevillian you have peaked the interest of many others in the WP world tonight. They are keen to know why you have never spoken up about these rubbish Unis at any conference on the last 2 years ? Because it's never been mentioned by any delegate.
And you don't have to send a personal email. It's v v easy to set up a generic one. If it's so easy to distribute useful information why don't you do it ?

mumsneedwine · 08/08/2025 23:25

😂😂 so AAA not good enough ? Oh dear. There is someone who has no clue how A levels are set and marked.

Sevillian · 08/08/2025 23:27

I honestly can't be moved to respond to your fantastical posts mumsneedwine.

Why should people set up a special email for this silly spreadsheet? Why not simply facilitate a link. It seems unnecessarily intrusive.

Sevillian · 08/08/2025 23:30

mumsneedwine · 08/08/2025 23:25

😂😂 so AAA not good enough ? Oh dear. There is someone who has no clue how A levels are set and marked.

mumsneedwine your standards are not as high as mine, clearly. Contextualisation is a different beast, but for students from good schools AAA for a future doctor is middling.

I know exactly how exams are marked, graded, what can be appealed etc etc. And these days AAA is too low as a standard offer without further rigorous filters. Which is why it's so easy to get into medical school at the moment and why so many struggle once they emerge.

mumsneedwine · 08/08/2025 23:31

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 pop on over to the Medicine threads and impart your wisdom. I like a good laugh.

PurpleFairyLights · 08/08/2025 23:32

mumsneedwine · 08/08/2025 23:23

@Sevillian you have peaked the interest of many others in the WP world tonight. They are keen to know why you have never spoken up about these rubbish Unis at any conference on the last 2 years ? Because it's never been mentioned by any delegate.
And you don't have to send a personal email. It's v v easy to set up a generic one. If it's so easy to distribute useful information why don't you do it ?

Maybe @Sevillian accidentally found themselves in the wrong conference and was too embarrassed to walk out?

mumsneedwine · 08/08/2025 23:35

😂😂😂 oh you're so cute. There aren't appeals anymore, haven't been for a few years. Just admin error remarks. And AAA seems to produce great doctors at 95% of Unis so you seem to disagree with their admission depts. Again, why are you not speaking up at conferences and meetings ?

mumsneedwine · 08/08/2025 23:36

@PurpleFairyLights 😂😂 I have the delegate list and not one person spoke out against new Unis. Maybe not that brave when in real life

PurpleFairyLights · 08/08/2025 23:40

mumsneedwine · 08/08/2025 23:36

@PurpleFairyLights 😂😂 I have the delegate list and not one person spoke out against new Unis. Maybe not that brave when in real life

Keyboard warriors are so brave...

Sevillian · 08/08/2025 23:40

mumsneedwine · 08/08/2025 23:31

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 pop on over to the Medicine threads and impart your wisdom. I like a good laugh.

I have occasionally skimmed the threads and retired in despair. Full of ridiculous heightened emotion ('emotional rollercoaster' etc etc). Grim.

Also, if I have a genuine interest in access, why would I be helping middle class mothers on MN unless it was purely out of some sort of indulgence for myself.

PurpleFairyLights · 08/08/2025 23:46

Sevillian · 08/08/2025 23:40

I have occasionally skimmed the threads and retired in despair. Full of ridiculous heightened emotion ('emotional rollercoaster' etc etc). Grim.

Also, if I have a genuine interest in access, why would I be helping middle class mothers on MN unless it was purely out of some sort of indulgence for myself.

This is comedy gold. Your distorted view of your threads is unbelievable. You have not helped anyone on these threads quite the opposite.

Please explain why women are termed middle class if their child is a doctor?

Sevillian · 08/08/2025 23:48

PurpleFairyLights · 08/08/2025 23:46

This is comedy gold. Your distorted view of your threads is unbelievable. You have not helped anyone on these threads quite the opposite.

Please explain why women are termed middle class if their child is a doctor?

What are you talking about? I've never claimed to help anyone on these threads. I've also never started a thread. Perhaps it's time for bed - you're making no sense. That's where I'm heading now.

mumsneedwine · 08/08/2025 23:51

Sevillian · 08/08/2025 23:48

What are you talking about? I've never claimed to help anyone on these threads. I've also never started a thread. Perhaps it's time for bed - you're making no sense. That's where I'm heading now.

Edited

And there we have it. Never helped anyone.

ShellacofChopin · 09/08/2025 00:17

Sevillian · 08/08/2025 23:15

I mean I'll take pedantry, in the sense that I never said B grades were standard, yet you somehow fabricated that I did. Your verbatim quote does not mention B grades.

This is how the exchange went. If you meant something other than B grades then why didn't you disabuse me of that in your reply. What were you referring to that would be there at a glance in the spreadsheet? What did you expect me to find on the lower ranked medical schools' websites other than their standard offer? A written disclosure of how rigorous their specific interviews were?

ShellacofChopin · 03/08/2025 19:49

...Although I would still love to know all those medical schools that are allegedly making standard offers of B grades without any contextual flags. I guess we'll never know.

Sevillian · 03/08/2025 20:48

Well if you're prepared to give mumsneedwine your personal email address she'll send you her legendary 'spreadsheet', if you are actually interested. They'll be there at a glance. Or just dial up the lower ranked medical schools yourself on the internet - not hard.

mumsneedwine · 09/08/2025 06:59

Facts have not been the strong point of some on this thread. Denigrating doctors who don't attend a 'traditional' Uni (I assume they mean new) and calling students and F1s useless seem to be more their style.

It's weird as everyone involved in WP does it to expand access to a wider range of students. Some WP students are middle class (strange anyone so involved wouldn't know this). It's not just about money but family circumstances- many a young carer or foster child lives in a nice house. Not sure why you wouldn't share your massive knowledge with everyone if you want access for all.

Not sure my spreadsheet is that legendary but it's quite useful if you don't want to trawl through every Uni to find GCSE, A Level and selection criteria. If they'd make them all the same it would be easier. Here's that column for interview selections for anyone interested (or I can just send the whole thing to a made up email if you'd like). Most pretty transparent, but the odd few still a bit of a mystery.

To think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike? Thread 2
Sevillian · 09/08/2025 12:35

It's weird as everyone involved in WP does it to expand access to a wider range of students. Some WP students are middle class (strange anyone so involved wouldn't know this). It's not just about money but family circumstances- many a young carer or foster child lives in a nice house. Not sure why you wouldn't share your massive knowledge with everyone if you want access for all

I would say that on a one to ten scale of weirdness (which you introduced into the conversation, not me), then asking so consistently for people to share their personal emails with you is significantly higher up the scale than concentrating efforts in relation to WP in real life, as opposed to on the middle class dominated Higher Ed threads on MN.

Yes of course education can be disrupted by ill fortune in any student's life. But you're now saying that this is the reason for your being such a large presence on the application threads, on the off chance that there might be one middle class parent who has a child who is also a carer? Dig deep now - can you honestly say that that's why you spend so much of your life on those threads? Can I just say, gently, that it doesn't seem a very targeted approach.

Also, on the subject of weirdness (which you introduced into the conversation, not me (repetition for emphasis)), it's way beyond weird to say that in the space of less than an hour after my posting about having experience in relation to issues of access (22.27hr v 23.24hr), you post that [I] have peaked the interest of many others in the WP world tonight Please don't tell us that you're actually messaging professional colleagues at half past ten at night and 'many' are captivated by the idea that there might be a random poster on MN (!) who thinks it's too easy to get into medical school these days and that some medical schools are not as good as they might be. I hope you added that a number of senior consultants on these threads have been explicit in the fact that they hold the same view. And I'll add three things: one, you've spelled piqued incorrectly, two, this is not professional conduct as I understand it and three, do try as hard as you possibly can to stay away from any witness box because I would put a lot of money on it not ending well (except for the cross examining barrister, who would have an absolute field day).

TheFancyDuck · 09/08/2025 14:55

Marchesman · 22/07/2025 22:38

@poetryandwine

That is a lot to address, and I'm probably not the best person to ask. My experience is lengthy, clinical rather than managerial, and anecdotal; although for what it's worth, it is consistent with the data.

I think you are broadly right about costs, seniority, and training because new IMGs are predominantly locally employed (LE). However, I would say that "training" is a misleading term because there is not much difference in learning between these and training posts, if any. The difference is in credentialing and career progression. Costs can be lower because they are not nationally negotiated posts but that is not a reflection of the doctors who fill them or a reason for creating them - IMGs are not employed because they cost less. The posts are set up with specific service requirements in mind and it is helpful to have experienced people filling them.

I think about a third of LE posts are taken by UKGs.

A couple of things may help to put "non-training" posts into perspective. For insight into the job titles:

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/long-reads/specialty-specialist-locally-employed-doctors-nhs

and for LE numbers, trends, and where they come from:

https://www.gmc-uk.org/about/what-we-do-and-why/data-and-research/the-state-of-medical-education-and-practice-in-the-uk/workforce-report

Performance is measurably declining, for additive reasons, probably starting with the reduction of content in A level sciences, and culminating in reduced clinical exposure in the early years of medical careers. For the effects of reduced science teaching in medical schools, and the lower prior attainment of medical students, see "Exploring UK medical school differences: the MedDifs study of selection, teaching, student and F1 perceptions, postgraduate outcomes and fitness to practise":

https://doi.org/10.1186/s12916-020-01572-3

The data on poor performance in postgraduate exams is linked to by Marchesman in the quote above. It is scientific observation and peer reviewed, not a subjective opinion. As far as I can see the UKLA test that you mentioned is a very basic permission to practice, certainly not a replacement for Royal College membership exams which graduates of the worst performing medical schools struggle with but which they will have to pass on order to have a meaningful medical career.

I'm intrigued to know where you got the astonishing information that UEA graduates performed best last year in Royal College exams. Really? If it's true (which I'm sure it isn't) please tell us your source. It is so extraordinary that the medical school rated 34th, and with a teaching score of 18 should, with their very average intake manage to outperform all the others.

I do hope you can prove me wrong, but I think I'll have to file that one with all the other things that mumsneedwine is wrong about (like 'Wes ' is listening)

Needmoresleep · 09/08/2025 17:35

We may be describing the same issue from different angles.

As I said in my post, DD's deanery has been hit by a number of F1s not turning up. You have the same problem with F3s.

Could it be the lack of career path that is causing young doctors to drop out, either to a different career or to another country? Reddit, when I last looked, was full of discussion by young Indian doctors about why taking up alternative offers in the US, Canada, Australia or NZ were preferable to a move to the UK. There is the risk that young UK doctors are also reaching the same conclusions.

DD may have many faults, amongst them indecision. She had always been interested in a particular, competitive, speciality but F1/F2 rotations caused her to change her mind. She is now torn between two other specialities and ideally would spend F3 time in one or the other before deciding. Her generation will probably be working to they are in their 70s so she wants to get it right. (Covid struck during her first clinical year so she missed out on ward experience in some key specialities.)

F3 has always been an option so I am surprised that this approach attracts so much criticism.

The issue now is not the six month jobs but the having to compete with several hundred for that six month job. And then doing the same for the next and the one after. Unless you are very lucky, this is hours and hours and hours spent writing applications alongside work and the rest. With the very real possibility that some of the overseas applicants will be offering better experience and additional qualifications. Very different from Australia where you seem to be able to make one application to an agency, or complete a state wide application followed by applications for specific jobs or rotations within a speciality, ie that you move round as in the UK but over a two year programme and with the chance to gain a breath of experience within that speciality. No need to reapply for jobs every six months. The role she is hoping to get will also allow her to be involved in research, so she should end up in a better position to then apply for a UK training place than she would if she found something in the UK.

Her friend did it all right as far as previous posters are arguing. Came from a w/c background, applied for training during F2 but did not get a number. Eventually found a scarce F3 short term position, in geriatrics. She too is looking at Australia. Her current role is not giving her the experience she wants and is, well, boring. (Most work is carried out by HCPs but they need a doctor around.) It is not just this year that is affected. Previous years have suffered from the increase in worldwide competition and there is a backlog. In six months time she might have nothing. The career path in the UK is broken and a good proportion of competent doctors will need to go overseas to get the experience required to progress.

I was genuinely surprised a few weeks ago to hear that a local family were heading to Dubai. Couple in the 40s with children. She is a consultant and has landed a good job there.

It used to be that a proportion of IMGs would leave after completing their training in the UK, whilst others would stay. I suspect that the proportion leaving is now higher. With the grown of the private sector overseas, I had also heard the it is increasingly common for consultants who were originally from overseas not to wait till retirement but to now head home once the children are grown. Indeed some will start a pattern of retaining residency in the UK to ensure DC have access to higher education, but in parallel start to spend periods working in well paid medical centres overseas. If UK educated and trained consultants are also heading overseas half way through their careers, the NHS really does have a retention problem.

Rather than blame young, or middle-aged, doctors for abandoning the NHS, it might be more constructive to ask why.

  • conditions. DD says it is why Consultants she has worked with talk about leaving. You can only hold the fort for so long.
  • competition for jobs. Too much competition, as we have following the lifting of the RMLT, makes job search a lengthy, difficult and often unrewarding process. Opening up entry level jobs to full international competition may allow a Trust to recruit someone very experienced at the bottom of the pay scale, but it takes work away from unemployed doctors here who need both the work and the experience.
  • the lack of reward for merit. DD and her friends work for a Deanery which still uses the old 2005 F1/F2 contract. They have been in demanding jobs with irregular shift patterns and have delivered. Yet strong appraisals and references and good experience give them no advantage. Indeed they are disadvantaged when it comes to applying for F3 or training. .
  • the relatively low number of training places and the high competition. (And the continuing high levels of competition further along the training pathway.)
  • the opening up of job opportunities around the world including the US for newly qualified Doctors and the growth of private health centres in the Middle East, Asian and elsewhere keen top recruit experience UK trained consultants.

In short is it sensible to be unconcerned that 50% of this years F2 leavers will be unable to stay in the NHS? Are we sure that we are retaining the right 50%? And are we bringing in the right doctors from overseas to take their place?

Then how do we keep the ones we train. How is the NHS placed in the market for sought after consultants? Are the careers offered competitive with the UK private medicine sector or private medicine elsewhere?

Needmoresleep · 09/08/2025 18:00

stuffedpeppers · 08/08/2025 19:45

50% of the residents in the BMA did not bother to apply for a number. IF you do not apply then you will not get a job.

Interestingly in one of our departments 3 FY3 grade level doctors pulled out last week, leaving us with gaps!

6 month jobs have been part of medical life for forever.

Working life is tough for everyone at the moment not just doctors. Commuting, applying for jobs, doing research, writing papers whilst working, studying for exams is nothing new in the medical world it ahs always been like this - are we about to see what is happening in law, where trainee solicitors are asking for easier exams because the old standards are too high.

I was responding to this.

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