To ask for some concrete examples of ways in which the world is ‘designed for NT people’?

[MaybeND]

I think I’m missing something as I’m just not really getting this aspect of neurodivergence which people keep talking about.

You absolutely try though and that
quite rightly happens. Sorting by out a flashing light is not an unreasonable ask.

My daughter has autism and adhd and severe MH battles. Her team at the NHS hospital she attended made sure her sessions were held in rooms that didn’t have intrusive noise or lighting and which also had a wheely chair and sensory aids. Their suggestions. Made a world of difference, they got so much out of her and a quicker recovery. Win win for all.

Schools are most often the ones that make the suggestions to aid access in the same way they make suggestions about somebody struggling academically to gain access to the curriculum or a medical need - eg extra phonics are needed, sensory aids for ND, a seat at the front for hearing difficulties etc. Often needs are listed on EHCPs.Schools aren’t in the habit of moaning about disabled kids and EHCP provision behind their backs. They provide provision for extra needs all day every day. It’s in their interest to.

as a teacher, schools a bit of a nightmare for many ND. Large groups of people which leads to noise (no matter how well behaved the class!), q&a in classrooms, group work with people you don’t necessarily choose. Big events. Hour long lessons requiring focus a two minute walk to the next room then sitting again. Strategies like fiddling or doodling gaining a bit of traction but still a bit suspicious
sensory issues have to wear the uniform not something comfortable.
lunchtimes
random lessons with cover teachers or room changes making big changes to your routine that you weren’t aware of. teacher moving the desks around, you walk in and find it’s all different. Days off timetable.

homework taking hour+ when you need the silence and recharge time

Yes but that’s an adaptation.
The world being ‘set up’ to be inclusive of everyone would suggest that ALL places use non-LED/bright lighting. Realistically that’s never going to happen, for various reasons.

So we go back to making reasonable adjustments for ND people because it isn’t realistic to set the world up for everyone.

That’s just my take on it.

FFS 🙄

What? It's true. So unless you're a white, heterosexual, male we are all at a disadvantage. That's the point, right??

I haven’t been diagnosed, but everything you said rings very true of when I was at school 45 years ago 😞.

Job interviews.

Jobs where you have last minute message from boss saying "I know you're supposed to be doing A but can you do B instead because of XYZ.

Everyone assuming you want to chat or make small talk snd if you don't you're a horrible person.

Sports days or end of term parties, proms etc.

Job interviews require eye contact, being bubbly, lying convincly - all things that are difficult for ND people. There was a thread on the ND board about a woman who is smart, capable, but is unable to get a job because she is not good at interviews.

Shops are a sensory nightmare - lights and noise.

Restaurants - noisy, some insist on playing the loudest fking music. The whole world has became too noisy in general

@thatsalad
There was a thread on the ND board about a woman who is smart, capable, but is unable to get a job because she is not good at interviews.

I'm in the same boat, and it's horrible. Although I'm finding the whole application process horrific, particularly long forms requiring numerous STAR examples (that want you to fit in so many specific things to ONE example, you can't say anything general) that take days to complete.
This issue is the same for so many autistic people, hence the high rates of unemployment and particularly underemployment. So many bright minds and capable people who can't get a foot in the door.

More broadly, in answer to the OP, I think @EmeraldRoulette has hit the nail on the head:

But my point is this - how have we ended up with a world designed in a way that so many people hate? How many people can you find that actually like open plan offices for example?

I genuinely wonder if some of the general rage we see in the population is an inability to cope with how things are set up

I agree with this so much! The world seems less and less designed for actual humans as time goes on. I'm sure people are more in need of diagnoses to explain/have proof of why they can't cope, as what is required of a person to function "as normal" in society gets harder and harder.

It's not just little things like bright lights. It's the whole overall structure of things, how the world has evolved and how things are done. Out of touch with nature, having to lie and pretend to be passionate about stuff that doesn't (or shouldn't) matter to get work, work that revolves around selling people stuff they don't need rather than meeting human needs. The constant struggle of everyone fighting to be the best (or drop out of society because they can't) rather than everyone having their little niche they can just tick over in. It's worse for those with Autism etc, but it's not great for anyone! So much of the way the world functions is just stupid and illogocal.

No we are not all as disadvantaged as those who are disabled.

Definitely the education system. It’s a one size fits all aims at memorising a load of facts and doing an exam at the end to prove you know the facts. It doesn’t allow for the fact that some people might struggle to process information that way. That small busy classrooms might be overwhelming, that sitting still and silently might excruciating.
Job interviews- processing skills, being on the spot. Knowing the right things to say.
lack of funding /adaptions to support nd people in adulthood. Suitable jobs are often low paid giving limited opportunities to thrive
Social norms- expectations to behaviour in a conformist way. To eat certain things, share interest in certain things. To follow similar routines and patterns to everyone else. Deviation is often met with judgement.
Work - this societal expectation that we all need to flog ourselves to death when a more employee centred approach could mean people thrive in the work force.

The fact that nd people are expected to fit in and adjust but NT people are often unwilling to do the same despite it being easier for them to do so.

I think you can rank that. If you're white you're still more privileged than most.

For me, it’s all about noise and interruptions, the way that noise and loving noise is seen as normal.

Loud people on Buses and trains, open plan offices, constant chatter in school classrooms, ‘collaboration’, elevator music, restaurants designed to deliberately amplify the sounds of clattering knives and forks, constant overhead messages in station concourses and on transport, music blaring from people’s gardens, ‘how was your meal?’ on and on and on it goes.

How does anyone think?

@WhatsitWiggle absolutely spot on which is why the wheels came off for my ND daughter when she started secondary school. On her first day she was handed a timetable that even I found confusing. We are now two years out of school waiting for a specialist school which is impossible to find due to no spaces. Disgraceful.

The best bit about realising I was autistic was realising people weren't being vindictive and nasty to me. People who'd make a plan and then change it at the last minute.
Because last minute changes caused me so much anxiety and panic. And they didn't seem to care. I thought they were so selfish.
48 til I realised not everyone feels like the world is falling apart when things change suddenly. It's changed my life. I still feel that anxiety but I don't feel that people hate me cos they're doing it. And that changes everything.
So that's a less concrete example of how the world is set up. But when I was younger no one taught me that I'd feel and respond differently to the norm. I feel rage for parents who don't want to tell their children they're autistic. I think nowadays schools are set up to recognise and help the kids and that's a really, really good thing.

There's loads of examples if you know someone who is nd and understand the things they find difficult. A recent example for dd was that she loves the Jurassic Park/ World film series. She really, really wants to see the new film but she absolutely will not watch it at the cinema - it's too loud, the pictures are too big and overwhelming. Small example, perhaps, until you consider that all her friends will be able to watch it before her.

Or sports day: kids love excitement, shouting, running around, parental support, don't they? Except if they have problems with sensory processing and performance anxiety about being thrust into the spotlight...

In the first example, only recently have cinemas begun doing ND friendly showings. In the second, lots of children still feel unable to participate.

Obtuse as fuck!

Clear as day!

Straight out of the "I've drank the kool aid" text book. (I'm guessing you're white and middle class) One day you'll be on the wrong side of history

My 2 DC are autistic and I suspect I am too though have never sought diagnosis - largely due to previous interactions with the medical profession.

I do not react in the expected way - I am second guessing myself to the extent I don’t know how to react. There is a gap between feelings and response. I mask. I can be selectively mute as I take so long trying to work out the appropriate response. In some situations I am being observed by those in a relative position of power and my reactions appear odd. I under react. I am overly cheerful or mute. I just can’t get the appropriate NT reaction right. I’m judged and feel profoundly misunderstood which infects the next social communication. I’ve lost count of the ‘mum’s reaction was unusual’ comments. Maybe if I’d sought diagnosis they would be more understanding.

I have MA level education and had to give up a PhD to become a carer and am excellent at written communication with a time gap to organise my thoughts but can’t do face to face to save my life.

Utter nonsense. It's about time this divisive lie marketed as a new "fact" stopped getting repeated.

It's totally a fact, most people recognise it as they seeing every day. Pretending it's not true doesn't make it go away.

Hand Dryers in loos: TOO noisy, means my ASD daughter won't use a public toilet.
Perfume counters: TOO smelly, she won't go in shops with perfume counters.
Tags in clothing: No item can be worn without tags being removed, removing tags often makes holes in clothes..
Lighting: Why does everywhere have to be lit up like the sun? Many shops are too bright, too noisy.
Schools: They smell funny, they are noisy, the uniform is unwearable due to texture, the lighting is abhorrent, the loos are a torture chamber... Totally unsuitable for most ND kids.

Not in my experience they don't. They make lots of noises about provision and support but don't actually provide any. Apparently there are others worse off whose needs they need to deal with first. And don't talk about funding, the allowances we wanted made for our ND daughter were free (a pass to use the loo during lesson time when they are quiet as an example). After terms of fighting they finally told me that I was just expecting too much too fast. She attends an online school now in clothes she can tolerate in a quiet room with food she can eat and a loo she can use but I am still SO ANGRY with her school that they couldn't make a single allowance for her to at least try and remain in traditional education.