To ask for some concrete examples of ways in which the world is ‘designed for NT people’?

[MaybeND]

I think I’m missing something as I’m just not really getting this aspect of neurodivergence which people keep talking about.

It cannot be as there is no typical brain. People without certain conditions are not clones so there is no typical.

Everyone is ND.

Aside from eye contact and performing emotional resources "correctly", I actually think these examples highlight that society isn't "designed for" anyone - neurotypical/ alltistic or neurodiverse/ specifically autistic. I'm not saying that to be dismissive of neurodiversity but rather the opposite - a lot of changes would improve society and specific environments for everyone.

Some things are fairly easily achievable (personally as an ex secondary school teacher currently working with teenagers and young adults with learning disabilities I think school uniform doesn't serve any of the purposes people claim it does. My own children went through a non uniform system - two right the way to finishing school and one has two years to go, and we experienced precisely none of the problems people swear would occur if uniform was scrapped).

For the most part an autism friendly classroom benefits every child.

Other things however might be wonderful for everyone but are financially or logistically pipe dreams - much longer GP appointments in a system where it's already almost impossible to get an appointment in some areas, for example. I have ADHD and would love a flexible working model for myself, to work intensely and then take long stretches to recover as is my natural pattern - but my job can't be done that way as I have to be there when my students are! Additionally as I've chosen to have my own children my schedule has to work for them too.

None of us are islands and this can mean conflicts of needs and financial and logistical realities prevent things quite working for anyone.

I probably wont make a lot of sense as Im just musing but given that there is nothing unusual, or wrong in fact, with the world or society or communities being designed around the usual social norms/habits/behaviours of the majority, you would expect, IF it is true that NT people make up the majority, that the systems and behaviours around us are formed by and form the 'design of the world'.

That said, some of the modern world in my view, very technologically advanced, isolated, remote, distant, automatic etc etc, is often designed by people who are more likely to be ND, therefore the very systems that we all now work with and are led by and control us to some degree are likely to have a huge part of them influenced by the way that someone on the spectrum thinks and sees the world.

There is also another anomaly which perhaps is that those who are NT are not the majority, in which case the world is not designed for NT vs ND, it just is a hotchpotch of systems and behaviours at any one time. This will be borne out in years to come in my view in that conditions like ND dont have a diagnosis criteria cast in stone, its changed over the years and wil change again. So the way the condition is seen is a socially perceived and designed thing in and of itself.

Ah the classic response.

Much of what you describe there is basic universal human behaviour though, thats why we know if someone isnt able to process information or respond to the social norms, because they do it differently.

Of course much of the world is functioning with social communication, non verbal communication, we are animals, this is how we communicate. Its not about how a world is built or not built.

Were you asked, specifically? How bloody rude.

I needed to sign some paperwork pre-operation and the dr assumed I wasnt paying her enough attention as I wasn’t making eye contact with her and tried to claimed she couldn’t go ahead with the surgery

I think you are possibly taking built a lot more literally than I was!

But it is possible to structure a medical appointment in a way that takes into account someone has a communication disorder and to me the fact it wasnt structured like that made the appointment not 'built' or him - it assumed no communication disorder and proceeded accordingly. Its entirely possible to not use metaphors, leave more processing time etc as other doctors manage to.

We are all unique, yes.

It’s a phrase people use though and I was trying to seek some greater clarity on what they mean.

Yes I hear what you are saying. In practice some of these would not be practical to change.

Social rules is a huge one, as already seen in this thread. There's an expectation on how people should communicate, the language they use, the tone, words that are seen as polite, words that are seen as rude. Certain expectations of behaviour, look at someone when they talk to you, always greet/depart in a socially acceptable way, use a certain body language, make everyone feel included. I'm sure there's more.
These are all social rules that are largely unspoken and NT people learn them simply by the way they observe the world around them in early childhood. For ND people (particularly autism) those rules aren't picked up or they feel so unnatural, sometimes to the point of causing significant anxiety, I've heard some people say that it causes them physical pain. Some will have a sense of panic when in interaction because they are worried about what is expected of them, sometimes to the point they will go mute and physically be unable to meet the social norms of interaction.
There's then a vicious circle as they are called rude, they are sometimes ostracised from groups, many children are bullied at school, people are called weird, their work colleagues dislike them, they may even struggle getting a job. Then that anxiety is heightened and they are finding interaction even more overwhelming and so not able to recognise the expected etiquette in the interaction or know what is expected but physically can't execute it.
If your NT maybe you won't understand this or see it as a concrete example because for you it's very easy to be polite and follow social norms and you can't see how someone could have difficulty with a simple 'Hi, how are you?" Or know how to know how to show empathy in the way a person expects it. Maybe NT people don't understand that when they call an ND person rude or weird they are harming that person's self esteem and making it even harder for them to interact, thus continuing to keep the world that is not set up for ND people. If a deaf person didn't hear us, we'd make exceptions, if a person with a stammer couldn't get a sentence out we would be patient with them. Autistic people often don't get the same level if understanding and are labeled rude or weird if they don't communicate the same way. If we accepted that everyone will communicate differently and stopped being offended when someone doesn't follow these unspoken social rules (because they don't know how or physically can't) it would be a more ND friendly world.

Its not "the world", it's human nature.
We rely on communication as a species, it's not what we built, it's how we survived through time.

Some neurodiverse needs also conflict with others of course - many people with ADHD need fixed deadlines.

Well we need to clear up what 'the party starts at 7pm' means

It is a phrase that means nothing as it doesn't exist.

Restaurants and bars with loud background music and lots of hard surfaces that the noise bounces off maybe? No one likes that exactly but it's can be pretty unbearable for neurodiverse people.

Open plan offices can also be super difficult.

Absolutely there are conflicting needs between all. Bright lights vs low lightings, noise vs quiet.

I feel as if I understand it better now. Thank you.

The use of metaphors even if they can be understood it can slow processing down.
The way people obey unwritten rules, eg greeting someone saying “how are you”. And even forms can have similar ambigiousness on them.
Noise and lights - my daughter likes Lidl and Aldi, can tolerate Waitrose but finds Tesco and Sainsburys overwhelming.
Finding a lot of life as over stimulating as a loud nightclub.

Maybe read the rest of the thread and educate yourself.

Perhaps the doctor had a social communication processing disorder as well. Many consultants appear to ahve ND traits to me.

Sadly as a ND family with social care involvement from the Disabled Children's Team, this good practice certainly hasn't reached my LA. Despite being the DCT, not safeguarding, we've only ever had one practitioner with a useful level of knowledge - and that was due to her own lived experience, not her workplace training.

There are ridiculously bright lights EVERYWHERE. When they don’t need to be, in schools, colleges, offices, everyone just walks in and turns them on without assessing whether they are actually needed or not. No-one seems able to wait a few minutes and let their eyes adjust if they have walked into a slightly darker room. If there is someone in the room that is sitting happily in the natural light then you can guarantee that a neurotypical will stroll in and declare “Oh you’re sitting in the dark in here!” and ‘helpfully’ turn the light on..

@crunchynutgirl

has listed a very good list of possible examples but also remember everyone is an individual, a reasonable adjustment for one person is not suitable for another! My dd wouldn’t have last an hour in the autism unit that was recommended for her because of the disruption by the other students, she couldn’t deal with rule breaking of the most minor kind, other kids kicking off would have sent her crazy (literally as in mental breakdown) she ended up being educated in her normal school but having a separate space behind the school office and a laptop, worked for her but not a solution for others necessarily. Clothing is another one, what one person can’t tolerate is fine for another. So difficult to generalise

Maybe!

It was just an example of a time that having a social communications disorder made my sons life difficult as if the world were not designed for him.

I didnt think it would be so controversial an example. People very often focus on sensory issues as they are easier to get across, so I thought I'd have a stab at a rcommunication one to try help op out. But its really got people confused so I obviously didn't do well.

If the appointment had be designed for him it would have been longer to give him time to process and relied less heavily on metaphors to describe symptoms and nuance to get across what she wanted him to do, and just actually described the symptoms and said directly what was wanted. Its actually quite a common problem for people with autism that's why there is training on it taking place..