To ask for some concrete examples of ways in which the world is ‘designed for NT people’?

[MaybeND]

I think I’m missing something as I’m just not really getting this aspect of neurodivergence which people keep talking about.

Valued locally:

At the council meeting, Cllr Bishop said: "I'd like to start by acknowledging and paying credit to the important role that neurodivergent people play in our society, creatively, academically and socially.

https://www.theoldhamtimes.co.uk/news/25320623.dreadful-postcode-lottery-affecting-oldhams-residents/

I'm a social worker. The training may be dependent on your area. I started in CP and had zero training on ND and it wasn't spoken about. I joined adult social care a few years later and although there is a lot more understanding about ND, we speak about it and learn from each other as well as do our own reading around it, the whoe sum of the training available is a half day course on Autism.
It was never spoken about during my social work degree either. Sadly, I look back on some of my cases in CP and wish I had more understanding of ND.

Thank you! It stands to reason that if NT doesn't exist then we are all ND so the world is built by ND people for ND people. So it is all designed for ND people.

The noise , lights, smells in most places. Overpacked shops, with very narrow aisles. Stupidly noisy hand dryers.

Social contact and contract revolves around eye contact, physical contact(sometimes), small talk, smiling, understanding metaphors and figures of speech etc.

A lot of interactions require quick processing , understanding and action.

That’s just at a basic level.

We took the kids out for brunch today and the place we went to was just like this. My youngest immediately de-regulated and was unable to think about food or eat at all. We ended up taking food home.

School drop-off and pick-up is full of movement, noise and people - immediately causes distress. He now goes into class 10 mins earlier to do a ‘job’ and is collected through the office

there’s background music and noise everywhere. Loads of shops have quiet hours once a week for people who need that but shouldn’t that just be the norm? Neurotypical people don’t need music piped at them constantly after all

I think its a good example for a couple of reasons.

It shows the difficulty your son had with an interaction that the doctor presumably thought they were managing fairly well and in the way that we have to assume they normally do things. The doctor now might have caused confusio and misunderstanding when they now think that they were clear.

But it also shows the issues are not straight forward becuase my OH would absolutely not cope at all with 'time', he would become frustrated and agitated, feel overwhelmed and how on earth and under what mechanism would it be decided what approach is right for who? Not to mention that my OH probably couldnt tell anyone at the best of times how he needs information to be presented to him, he doesnt really understand himself to that degree, as with many people full stop but many people who are ND

His son as an example, would struggle with a black and white explanation and not accept or understand why x is x and would need example or metaphor (perhaps) as a way to see whats going on. Despite the fact that he is very black and white

Otherway round in this house, I like low lighting, my OH is obsessed with the lights being on, likes them on all the time and turns them on without regard to whether I want that or need that, I turn them off but he struggles to understand that and turns them back on again. Perhaps try not to stereotype.

I need lights on all the time. Middle of summer sun streaming in....lights are on! Got to be the 'big light' too not side lamps. They aren't bright enough.

Everyone has a preference.

Exams are so absolutely designed the exact opposite way of getting the best of my (ADHD) brain - and to me seem so utterly random in what they demonstrate about you (no insight into your ability to work in a team or solve a problem on the spot). But can see why we’ve ended up with a system which rewards you for basically accepting drudgery.

More autism relevant perhaps: I hear so many awful American law enforcement officers saying they knew someone was guilty of a crime because they did or did not react a certain way when they heard a loved one had died or at the funeral etc.

But do you not think most neuroptypcal people would have been fine with the way the interaction went.

I am not following the train of thought that because people with neurodivergent disorders present differently and have different difficulties it means that the world isn't built around "typical' communication.

I don't think the issues are straightforward and that ots easy or instant to cater for every difference

But I also dont think that the concept of the world being designed for NT people is an especially deep one. There's a typical way things are communicated or set up or done and lots of people fall outside it for lots of reasons.

And another thing he does which drives me round the bend is that I will be enjoying peace and quiet and he will come in and put the telly for me, even though I dont want it on and he doesnt want it on. He cannot see past his assumption that I want the telly on, he doesnt ask or acknowledge that I dont want it on. He is totally fixed in some of his beliefs and this is how it comes out, its almost like a behavioural tic.

I do think the world is built around typical human social communication, I didnt say it wasnt

Im not convinced talking in metaphor meets that criteria though, but it might do some cases, I do stuff like that myself and also use very loose terms that may well confuse someone with ND. On the other hand when people do it with me I really dont understand what they're on about.

I was just pointing out that there are so many ways that it could be said 'the world' is built for NT, and the examples of those dont meet anyones needs, NT or not. And that examples of how one person with ND struggles with a particular situation as evidence of that, are somewhat flawed becuase the next ND person in the line may not do.

Its person specific rather than condition specific. Thats why as other posters have said above its a meaningless phrase or concept to some degree.

So many things.

The assumption that everyone likes surprises, celebrations and going on holiday and you're miserable or a killjoy if you don't.

Children are routinely told it's rude not to look at someone when they're talking to you, to fidget, or to question anything an adult tells them as fact.

The whole concept of uniforms or dress-codes.

The use of metaphors and idioms which is so widespread and ingrained that most NT people don't even notice they're using them half the time.

Being expected to "read between the lines" in a conversation, being expected to recongise sarcasm, or know when it's your turn to talk or when a conversation should stop.

Job interviews that heavily weigh first impressions rather than skill or competence, where you're often expected to engage with tasks or questions that are specifically designed to see how you cope under pressure.

Bright lights, background music, crowded spaces, or strong scents are considered "normal' in most public places when Autistic people may find them overwhelming or even painful.

Workplace norms that often disadvantage ND people who can find themselves overlooked for promotions due to less conventional social behavior despite performing well in their jobs.

Fussy eaters in adulthood being labelled as childish or pathetic and the assumption that this is something people should "grow out of". If you're being hosted it's seen as "rude" not to eat what's put in front of you. There are many behaviours that are seen as "childish" because they are not the norm for NT adults but are not at all unusual in ND people.

Our entire education system from the curriculum, to the physical environment of schools, to school events and methods of assessment. So many bright Autistic kids underperform in exams because they interpret the questions literally or aren't able to read between the lines. I remember my DD (who is very academically capable) having a panic attack when she was asked to write a poem "from the point of view of a storm". Her brain simply could not compute how weather could possibly have a point of view.

I could go on all day to he honest.

School uniform.

A lot of these things resonate but I don't have any diagnosis

but lots of people hate open plan offices - who doesn't? - and restaurants being noisy has been written about as a problem for as long as I've been an adult.

the world is set up in stupid ways that make many people struggle hugely, and often then we go into avoidance.

I'm autistic and find I struggle much, much more as an adult than I ever did as a child. I think because society is much more tolerant of children acting outside the "norm" than they are of adults behaving in the same way.

For example, a child who can't make eye contact is seen as cute, or shy. An adult who can't make eye contact is seen as rude. A child who needs ear-defenders is accommodated - an adult is expected to get over it and suck it up. A child who is overwhelmed and has a meltdown receives sympathy - an adult who has a meltdown is labelled a brat, or violent, or even a psychopath.

My main struggles are around sensory overload and being unable to communicate my struggles to other people. I often isolate, go mute or just mumble when I'm overwhelmed and I'm often told that makes me rude or offensive to other people. I can't cope with basic activities like supermarket shopping or meals at other people's homes - yet when I don't participate, I'm told I'm stupid, or antisocial, or weird.

I'm also very particular with food and it's a very sensory experience for me, yet I'm told I'm childish when I can't eat lettuce without gagging, or dramatic because I will be sick if forced to eat cooked spinach.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that these things are only a problem for ND people. Anyone who is anxious or introverted would benefit from an ND friendly environment or adaptions. The point is that whilst we all, ND or NT, have our challenges and things about the world we'd love to change, for ND people it's relentless and the usual anxiety- management strategies often don't work because...oh yeah, that's another thing, the vast majority of advice, strategies and therapeutic approaches for managing anxiety are not easily adapted to ND people. I work with a lot of ND kids who can't access Mental Health support because it doesn't meet their social communication needs.

There's a difference between struggling in a loud environment, and finding it so overwhelming or painful that you have no choice but to leave or cover your ears, otherwise you will scream, or cry, or shut down completely.

If I have to go to a supermarket and do a food shop, I can mask until I get into the car, but I will often be entirely mute on the journey home, or get home, unpack, and need to go and isolate myself to recover, because the noise, lights and crowds make me feel physically unwell.

Yes. I have to pay £52 an hour for a psychotherapist who adapts her style of work to suit adults with autism, because the therapy offered on the NHS can't do that, and is mainly CBT-based.

I think one of the issues is that you cant make things accessible/designed for everyone. Everyone has different needs and they often conflict. E.g low lighting may be preferable for some autistic people but would make an area inaccessible for someone with a visual disability. It's even an issue within autism as some autistic people need lots of sensory input and crave noise and lights and others need low sensory input.
It's not possible to make situations fit everyone. I suspect that the nt way of doing things is the midpoint which covers the largest bit of the bell curve of what is accessible to most people.
What would make things better is for everyone to be understanding that their experience of live is only one way of being and to be thoughtful of others needs being different.

What would make things better is for everyone to be understanding that their experience of live is only one way of being and to be thoughtful of others needs being different.

I also think people should be more understanding of people (adults in particular) who use visible aids in order to make the world more bearable. My dad was always laughed at for wearing sunglasses inside (bright light was unbearable) or ear plugs in the pub. But equally if he'd stayed at home or isolated himself elsewhere, he'd have been mocked for that too.

Open plan offices - a world of hell for most ND people.

Itchy tags on clothing at the neck - why are they sewn here?

The expectation not to be quiet at school or work.

Sadly music is very deliberately used to control customer behaviour, from perception of time to speed of movement through the retail outlet to average spend. The commercial possibilities of manipulating customers using piped music in retail have been quite extensively studied and exploited. Nobody wants it except the executives and shareholders (who aren't listening to it but believe it increases sales).

So so true. I have no idea how people cope with those lights.

I agree with this
when I looked around schools and picked daughters secondary school
it was multiple reasons I did and I left that school saying in my head “ everyone deserves that education “
she is ND but if I woukd send my NT children there !