AIBU to agree with Diane Abbott

[Elephantiner]

I cannot stand Diane Abbott, she has a lazy, patronising manner which riles me, but she has said that people visiblybof a different race (e.g. black people) experience a different sort of racism than those who’s race is not visually obvious (travellers, Jewish people etc). She has a point, doesn’t she? Am I missing something here?

Obviously all types of racism are utterly abhorrent.

I completely get this. Diane has turned her back on victims, and has shown she holds victims im contempt. I agree, I admired her so much once, but she's chucked it all away to behave like a student but beyond that she is actually a role model and she has taught other people that saying this stuff is fine.

I didn’t see the original, but that doesn’t change my perspective. The comments you made are exactly why, as a mixed-race person, I would never align myself with or attempt to form an alliance with the Jewish community. I think everyone needs to advocate and fight their own battles. I understand and accept that you may not agree, and that’s fine. Everyone is entitled to their own views.

That’s not true. Where do you get your data from?

“there were 3,282 religious hate crimes targeted at Jewish people in the year ending March 2024. These offences accounted for a third (33%) of all religious hate crimes in the last year.”

“hate crimes against Muslims, up 13% to 3,866 reported offences. Almost two in five religious hate crimes (38%) were targeted against Muslims, the report said.”

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/oct/10/religious-hate-crimes-at-record-levels-in-england-and-wales-official-figures-show

It's a shame you don't believe in the socialist concept of solidarity. I don't think we can have a truly free and equitable society without it.

The article to which Abbott's original letter referred to referenced studies showing incidents of racism experienced by various groups. Essentially it found that Jewish people and Travellers reported more racism than other demographics. Obviously there's discussion to be had but I imagine that's where Oshio is coming from.

Sorry, I couldn't see that you had a point. You described aspects of antisemitism but not how you thought antisemitism related to what Abbott was saying. Im disappointed that You think people are not prepared to listen to the experience of others or to show allyship. I think that's exactly the situation the Jewish community feels it is in and why Abbott's latest is so disturbing to them when we can see the sharp rise in antisemitism and people are not listening.

It is true.

Basic stats (Year ending March 2024, England & Wales)

Jews:
• 3,282 police-recorded religious hate crimes
• Jewish population ~ 271,300 → 121 hate crimes per 10,000 people

Muslims:
• 3,866 religious hate crimes
• Muslim population ~ 3,868,100 → 10 hate crimes per 10,000 people

So although absolute hate crimes targeting Muslims are slightly higher, the rate per person is much lower because the Muslim community is much larger.

121 ÷ 10 ≈ 12.1 → thus, a Jewish individual was roughly twelve times more likely to be a victim of a religious hate crime than a Muslim individual.

I don’t think the amount of criticism DA gets for sending her son to private school when compared to Tony Blair who did the same is justifiable.

I agree that proportionally that is a very large number of crimes on Jews.

But it’s also been reported that 80% of Muslims who experienced hate crimes don’t report them.

What she originally said (and then pretended to mis speak) was very different to what she is now saying. She originally said Irish Travellers and Jewish people were not subject to racism. And who can forget her previous comments about how white people love playing divide and rule? Of course, there’s nothing racist in her own views…ooooooh nooooo!

Is this the son who uses crystal meth and spits on police officers? Thank heavens for private education eh? 🙄

Was that really necessary?

Whilst I disagree with her that they can’t experience racism, she did say they experience prejudice similar to racism.

@Lavenderflower Oh my word. I tried to be so diplomatic in my response but I had not seen this. I think this goes beyond agreeing to disagree. You are openly saying you would not be an ally to the Jewish community. What on earth would happen if a Jewish person said they would not be an ally with the black community. They would be called a racist, surely?

Perhaps you aren't aware of the history of Jews allying with other minorities, particularly racialised minorities? In the civil rights movement in the US Jews helped form the NAACP & marched alongside Martin Luther King & many black & Jewish americans still find common cause. in South Africa Jews were critical allies in the fight against apartheid. Across the left there was, until recently a strong sense of solidarity and allyship despite diffrrences and at times some distrust.

In context it does. Blair was a social democrat on the right of the Labour party whereas Abbott is a staunch socialist, or says she is. In reality socialists tend not to access private education and make weak excuses for doing so. She's been the MP for Hackney North and Stoke Newington for decades. She had ample opportunity to raise what she claimed as inadequate provision of education for Hackney boys in Parliament. Instead she opted to pay for privilege and stonewall constituents who questioned that.

I don't think anyone in the Labour party should pay for private education but nobody can credibly claim surprise that Blair did. It didn't feel like a betrayal of oft-stated principle like it did to Abbott's constituents when she did it.

It's odd that you've spent several posts now attacking me for a reply I made to a post without reading the post I replied to.

Let's recap:

Poster:
"I agree with Diane Abbot, and we don't agree on many things.As someone of Irish heritage, who was bullied lots at school in the 70s for being 'IRA', my experience is no where close to my friends who are Black and Asian who are stared at every time they walk into a public space"

My reply:
"So like Diane your judging other people's lives based on your own. Diane lives in a place where less than half the population is white. Black people are not a suprise people stare at. It's not 1970"

So the context and my point should be obvious. Black and Asian people are simply not a minority in Hackney.

The poster is applying her minimisation of the bigotry others experience based on the fact that seemingly she personally happens to live in a place where seeing Black and Asian people isn't something they do all day every day.

As for your statement "as a mixed-race person, I would never align myself with or attempt to form an alliance with the Jewish community. I think everyone needs to advocate and fight their own battles" thanks for clearing that up, reading between the lines I think Diane feels the same.

What you're doing here today isn't fighting your own battle - it's doing what you've accused everyone else of doing and trying to minimise other people's experiences to prioritise your own.

There’s an underlying assumption that minority groups are in competition, not common cause. That it’s “us vs. them”, not “all of us against racism.” I'm sorry to say I was quite naive in not seeing this before.

I spent decades of my life aggressively standing against racism. I joined protests, i voted accordingly, I advocated, I spoke up when I saw unfairness and I frankly am shocked to see the sentiment not returned.

I am white. Pretty much anyway. Brown mum, but I came out white. But one thing I've never thought about any injustice is, “they can fight their own battles.”

But from what ive garnered from listening to the Jewish community is that they now understand that hate crime, bigotry, discrimination and harassment against them - and seemingly only them - apparently doesnt warrant collective support from our countrys most vocal so-called and verbose racism theorists.

Which is incorrect, unless you believe that the Holocaust was about a dislike of a religious group rather than a systematic attempt to eradicate an entire ethnicity.

In my view she showed her contempt of Jews by likening anti semitism to teasing endured by people with red hair. How can she continue to represent a constituency with such a diverse range of Jewish voters after this?

So first the data was wrong, and now the data (which you just shared yourself) doesn't count.

My son experienced 4 hate crimes and reported 1. Because the police could not have cared less.

You only need eyes and ears to see what's going on.

You summarise this conversation and the wider issue brilliantly. I too have been heavily inolved in anti racist action for 40 or more years. I naively thought antisemitism only remained on the fringes of the far right. Then the Corbyn era exposed that it had never gone away and was in fact flourishing on the left. The idea of common cause that was part of a left wing identity also fell apart. Thats when I educated myself about antisemitism.

I'm still horrified to see someone say Jewish people should fight their own battles.

I hope some people reading this will realise how important it is now to make common cause with Jewish people. Don't turn away.

Are people seriously saying they can’t immediately tell the ethnicity of these people at first sight (in Diane Abbott’s constituency no less), the same as you could by someone’s skin colour? What she said was awful, as are the people on here pretending she’s got a point. Of course she was wrong.

The thing is, people either fight injustice for everyone, or they only fight injustice for their own group.

The antisemitism crisis has shone a light on a lot of celebrated pioneers acclaimed widely as justice warriors.

Jewish people have historically stood with other marginalised groups, including during the civil rights movement as you said.

That solidarity is a two-way street — if we only stand for ourselves, we all lose.

Actually I think it's important to add that Abbott can't now claim to represent Travellers (Hackney has one of the UK's largest Traveller populations) or Irish people (who have traditionally made their home in Hackney) in her constituency. How can she, when she refuses to acknowledge the racism and hostility they face? She is evidently not doing her job as an MP. I wouldn't trust her to speak up for me or deal with any issues I have as a Jewish person, whether or not they are related to my ethnicity. Why would anybody else?

Agree.

No it wasn’t. Nobody should spit on police officers. It’s absolutely vile behaviour.

Not originally she didn’t. Go back further. It’s available online. She originally said they don’t experience racism. In Diane Abbot’s mind only black people can experience racism. It’s that simple.