AIBU to agree with Diane Abbott

[Elephantiner]

I cannot stand Diane Abbott, she has a lazy, patronising manner which riles me, but she has said that people visiblybof a different race (e.g. black people) experience a different sort of racism than those who’s race is not visually obvious (travellers, Jewish people etc). She has a point, doesn’t she? Am I missing something here?

Obviously all types of racism are utterly abhorrent.

As Gaza was predictably was raised on this thread, I'm not surprised at your comment. One poster (embarrassingly) said that using the term arab was racist, on another thread. That's the thing though, in desperately scrambling to do an Abbot and insist racism towards black people is top of the hierarchy, we are meant to stop efforts to combat antisemitism. No, it doesn't work like that.

Other disgusting comments don’t excuse the appalling comment you support.

It is a disgusting thing to say. Imagine if someone said, ‘Jewish people are playing the victim card’. I imagine you would think that was a horrific comment, esp given current events. I certainly would.

Who is the white saviour?

I do not support saying victims of racism are playing at being victim; I support tackling all racism - equally. You chose to hone in on one strand of the poster's comment. There are plenty of white saviours. Unless you disagree with David Lammy's reference to that.

I am glad you don’t believe black people are playing the victim card. Because only a racist would say that.

I have seen quite a bit of racism on this thread; I haven't been selective in my observations.

racism is a word that is too easily thrown at people, its used to suppress free speech and is indicative of people who have lost an argument. To assume that Twitter is the voice of the people is as mistaken as Mumsnet being seen the bastion of good advice on parenting.....

All racism is awful. But I find it even more depressing when minorities turn on each other. I am Asian and have heard horrific comments about black people from people in my own community. You would think there would be more understanding of racism. Blows my mind.

Who said that twitter is the voice of the people? What a funny idea!
I simply pointed out that at one point on twitter (a social media platform which by no means is the voice of the people but was quite popular) Diane Abbot received half of all abuse towards politicians. A point which should give everyone a pause for thought. I'm not sure how you can argue with that really?

It's become rather a trend on social media for black people to state that they really really hate white people. And Jewish people are often easy to spot because many of them wear traditional Jewish attire, so they are targeted because they stand out.

So yes, all racism is bad, completely agree.

What oppression would you call it? What is a prevailing view of young women as white trash? Genuine question.

I mean, the raped children were targeted because they were white by the rapists, and then they were ignored and branded prostitutes by those in authority because they were white - so yep, clear cut racism.

Yes, but that is not "all she has said".

What she originally said was that Irish, Jewish and Traveller people "undoubtedly experience prejudice" that is "similar to racism".
She wrote: "It is true that many types of white people with points of difference, such as redheads, can experience this prejudice. But they are not all their lives subject to racism."

So despite the way she’s trying to spin it now, she explicitly said originally that antisemitism was like prejudice against redheads, and is now saying she doesn’t regret having said that.

I assume she’s deliberately trying to get herself expelled from the Labour Party so she can be a martyr and then join Corbyn's new party.

The poster would rather focus on socio-economic causes of racism, than lived experiences of ALL victims.

Fair enough, being targeted with comments because you have red hair is not the same as racism.

Separately from that point, technically, prejudice against Jewish people and travellers is xenophobia not racism. Not that it makes any difference to how nasty it is and how it is experienced.

HRTFT but just heard the relevant comments, and I can’t dispute what she says, nor do I see the remarks as antisemitic. She’s right to point out that if you’re black, it’s immediately apparent: this is relevant for things like police stop-and-search, for example. People from Jewish or Traveller/Gypsy heritage are far less likely to experience the same kind of immediate racism unless they are presenting in ways which are associated with their ethnicity, like Orthodox Jews in traditional dress or (in my area at least) driving a van towing a caravan. I don’t understand what the problems are with pointing this out (I’ll come back later after work to read the other comments, though, so I might update my opinion!).

Not sure about that. I don’t know about Travellers, but how is it xenophobia if it targets Jews whose families have lived in this country, or any country where antisemitism occurs, for hundreds of years? (And of course for the Nazis it was definitely, specifically, about race.)

Absolutely not. Xenophobia is prejudice against people from other countries. You could be xenophobic to an American Jew. But if you are prejudiced against a British Jew then you are just a plain old racist. If you think Jews can't be British then you are also a racist.

For you, it's as simple as kippahs and caravans; the ignorance is astounding. What about the psychological impact of having to hide your religious symbols, to avoid being oppressed - for your children to be targetted? It beggars belief that posters are minimising antisemitism but for an MP to do it, especially at such a dangerous time. Unreal.

I think the comments from Jewish posters talking about the antisemitism they’ve faced should be read by everyone.

There’s a fair few saying yes they agree, but they surely have missed those posts.

And yes I know you’ve said you’ll come back to it, do more others that choose not to.

Much more overt...What's more overt than 6 million...that's million people being gassed to death for being Jewish?

I think it's important that we acknowledge that there are some individuals and groups of people who are racist and some structures of society that are institutionally racist.

There was undeniably a reluctance by authorities to pursue these groups of men for fear of being told they were being racist. It couldn't possibly be the case that these men were targeting young white women, because they were white. But it was. It was easier to avoid shame and vilification within their own culture.

What I call out is not just the men that did it but also the authorities that ignored it.

There was a prevailing view that these girls were easy and up for it and that young white western women lacked morals.

Yet, they were children. Whatever colour or background. They were children. This was a horrific injustice.

Yes, I agree with you. Thanks.

The irony of it all is that the original article she was responding to (when she wrote the initial comments in the letter that others have posted above) was arguing that a widespread structural view of racism risks being too simplistic and minimising of other groups’ and people’s experience of racism, including the structural racism that impacts people who are Jewish or Irish traveller. And that we need to consider racism as a multifaceted complex thing in order to tackle it, which is very close to what some of her defenders are now arguing themselves. If she’d said that the article risks in turn minimising the prejudice and discrimination that black people have to navigate on a daily basis, I’d kind of agree with her (I didn’t read it that way but I can see it could be taken as that). But she didn’t, she chose instead to minimise and trivialise Jewish and Irish traveller experiences of racism. She clearly believes in a hereby of racism and that Jewish and Irish travellers “suffer less” than black people because (she thinks) they are always white or ‘appear’ white, and it’s not possible to be racist to someone who’s white, only prejudiced. I think she’s very clearly wrong on both counts, but if people are going to defend her I think it’s important to at least recognise what she’s saying rather than what people wish she might have said (I know you’re not doing so, I just wanted to respond to your comment cause I agreed)

As a South Asian female who is often mistaken for European/white, I still experience racism which leaves me blindsided for days. I remember every single incident vividly, even the ones from years ago.

I can only imagine how much worse it must be for black people. And also how much worse for people who wear the hijab, kippah, sikh turban etc.

I would not compare my experience to that of black people.

And the idea of saying Jewish people never had to sit at the back of the bus when 6 million Jewish people were systematically rounded up and killed by the engines of their own state and within living memory - it just blows my mind to be honest. The history of racism for both (and other) groups, and the way that echos into the current day, are beyond terrible. There is no competition here.