Trans hate (I don't) and the same old, same old

[RetiringRita]

Well I've been on a few threads this weekend and the one that's been hijacked yet again was the question of trans hate on mumsnet.
The OP asked for opinions on whether that was a fair statement yet within minutes the question was ignored and the same FWR posters were out in force. They didn't want to answer the question so targeted their posts to state their agenda.

Sex as defined by The Surpreme Court ruling
TW perverts in women's prisons
TW perverts in female loos
Men in dresses
FTM having ASD or mental illness.

It appears those of us who sit on the fence are not entitled to be there. Those who cannot be bullied get shouted down.

I have been called the following :

Hand Maiden
Trans Ally
Not part of the sisterhood
Delusional
Captured
Shameful
Mentally ill
A liar (frequently)
A man

None apply to me.

Am I being unreasonable to ask for some understanding and compassion for trans people who don't fit the stereotypes listed?

But what discrimination are you referring to?

Nah, we’d just love for you to evidence this ‘hate’ you keep going on about. Something, anything, and explain why you think men should be able to go into women’s spaces, sports, prisons, rape crisis centres etc etc etc. What's the point in engaging in a discussion forum then. Discussion being the word here.

It shouldn’t really be this difficult.

Yes that is the EHRC draft guidance. Which is a massive over extension of the judgement and is not law unless and until it is approved by parliament.

I think this is expressly forbidden in the law because it would be discriminatory to non trans identifying males.

Either you make something single sex - so all males out.

Or it's unisex, so all males in.

Norhing in between

Actually the GC side wants you to put forward your views with the supporting facts so that they can be debated.

Yet the GI people won't do this as they either don't have any faith in their arguments or fact or don't like being proven wrong.

Hence the name calling form the GI supporters.

For example @Tandora seems to be able to have a discussion with several GC people.

That's your interpretation.

I don't know.

Do you actually believe that all applications and exceptions have to be listed? Because I don't believe so.

And why do you believe that you have more experience and knowledge about the law than the many legal minds that have stated differently to you? Or.... were they the wrong sort of legal minds and not those who have a bias towards interpreting the law to suit a group of male people with a particular philosophical belief.

Did you post the evidence about the neurological markers that can be used to reliably diagnose all people with transgender identities yet? I keep checking back and can find nothing. But you have told us confidently that it is not a philosophical belief. You tell us regularly you have qualifications in this field. Where is your evidence of these neurological markers please?

Have you sent that evidence to the international health organisations so that they can adjust their treatments that they offer etc.?

@Tandora let's say you want a toilet that can be used by women and transwomen but not by men who identify as men. You bar a man from this toilet and he sues you for sex discrimination.

Which part of the Equality Act would you use to defend yourself in court?

its entirely your personal opinion that it’s an “over extension”. “Trans women” are men. There is no legal basis for your faux single sex spaces. Single sex exceptions are based on biological sex.

Actually, what the EHRC and others have said is that if you do not offer single sex spaces but mixed sex callen men and women, you would be discriminating against women as some women can't use mixed sex space called womens, whilst men still have a single sex space called men as women won't use the mens.
If an organisation only offers mixed sex it needs to be setup as mixed sex which as different criteria than single sex.

For example, an open plan changing room called the womens should be single sex, female only, because otherwise you do not offer any facilities to women who do not want to get naked with men.
Or you only offer cubicles but then they have to enclosed to avoid voyeurism. Or you offer a mix.

I do not understand why anyone would have an issue with single sex and mixed sex so that everyone can participate. Why do a large majority of transwomen still insist on using the single sex option and taking away that option from women? That is such vile behaviour and indefensible.

Female bodied people face challenges and risks that are specific to our bodies and to how society treats people with our bodies.

Wanting a voice to speak about what it is to be female, the experiences and challenges of being female and be understood, and sometimes wanting spaces and resources that are female only where we can relax and support each other is not an act of hate to anyone.

It is an act of love, care and support to female people. Because we also matter.

Exactly. Bring on the arguments that aren’t just smears, insults or emotional blackmail.

why, exactly should I see a self selecting group of men as women? Rationale please.

Which bit? The bit that it is a massive over extension of the judgement? Yes that’s my interpretation; others will disagree.

But what is objectively true is that the judgement did not actually specify the interpretation as offered by the EHRC. It has not been specified , nor tested in law, nor has the draft guidance been approved by parliament.

Women's sex based rights shouldn't be conditional on how genuinely a man believes he is a woman or how truly sad he feels not to be included.

And women's right to exclude men (any men, from those who wouldn't hurt a fly to convicted sex offenders) from their toilets, changing rooms, showers and rape crisis groups has to be more important than a man's desire not to be seen as a man.

The rest is just noise.

Yes, we can have compassion for people with gender dysphoria. No, that doesn't mean they should have access to single sex spaces and sports for the opposite sex.

Sometimes compassion means saying, "I'm sorry life is so difficult for you and I'm sorry there is no way to give you what you want without it having a disproportionately harmful effect on other groups."

Not just giving them what they want regardless of the impact on others. Because then you're not being compassionate, you're choosing which group is worthy of compassion and which group isn't. And if you think a small group of male people is more worthy of compassion than all women, it's worth examining why you think that.

I agree

It is the only way that we can learn and adapt what we are working towards is if people discuss their views with evidence to support them so that we can read that evidence and come to a deeper understanding.

What is important is that evidence is discussed, not just misinformation and emotionally manipulative reasoning given.

I would really look forward to discussing evidence.

I have never said they (TW) should have any access to women's spaces.
I asked for compassion.
You are mistaking me for someone else.

The best and kindest thing that the “concerned allies” could do is to explain gently to their trans mates that their movement has overreached itself and people aren’t buying it. Because public opinion is not in your favour, and you can’t force people to share your beliefs or put on a performance that they do.

I think this is like the argument about whether some male people can be included in female single sex groups or not. The answer is no.

Luckily for us, Akua Reindorf KC has clarified.

Starts between 34-35 minutes in, but the entire session is good with Naomi Cunningham, Akua Reindorf, Ben Cooper and Sarah Vine.

Either way this is the transcript that I tidied up, although there could be typos. This is the bit about associations and whether there can be an association with women and males who identify as female.

"But everybody has to have ALL the protected characteristics in question."

And then

"What you can’t have is a group for people with two separate [protected characteristics] …where some people have one protected characteristic and others have a different one".

"Because then let's say you have a group for lesbians or women and men who identify as women, trans women, it's not a… it doesn't satisfy the condition of being a single sex association. A single protected characteristic association for women because not everybody is a woman. It doesn't satisfy the condition for being um a single characteristic association for people who have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment because not everybody has that protected characteristic ."

"So you can't have that kind of an association. So you can't have a so-called trans-inclusive association. I mean as Maya says, you can always have two associations that join up and do things together. There are ways around it. But fundamentally, what we have started to call sumptions law is wrong both for services and for associations. um "

"Of course, if it was possible to have a self ID service or association, For Women Scotland simply would not have won the case. Because this is what the Scottish government wanted to do. They wanted to have transidentified males in a quota for women."

I think I will listen to Akua Reindorf KC on this. She kind of has specific experience and relevance in getting the interpretation of the law clear.

I wasn’t replying to you.

What does compassion look like to you while we’re here? Why should I give compassion to males going into spaces they know they shouldn’t.

It has been specified that women are people born female. The already in existence provisions for sex segregated spaces detailed in the EHR have not changed the remain the same as they did before the SC confirmation. The only difference is workplaces & services can no longer choose which males enter female spaces & which don't.

Compassion for what, though?
Men's hurt feelings when they're not allowed in the women's loos?

Compassion for TW who are convicted rapists, who want to be housed in the female prison estate?

But they are asking for access to single sex spaces. Not your compassion.

What does compassion for this group of male people mean to you though?

Can you be more specific as to what you mean when you say there’s no compassion?

OK, what does that compassion look like, in your opinion?