Trans hate (I don't) and the same old, same old

[RetiringRita]

Well I've been on a few threads this weekend and the one that's been hijacked yet again was the question of trans hate on mumsnet.
The OP asked for opinions on whether that was a fair statement yet within minutes the question was ignored and the same FWR posters were out in force. They didn't want to answer the question so targeted their posts to state their agenda.

Sex as defined by The Surpreme Court ruling
TW perverts in women's prisons
TW perverts in female loos
Men in dresses
FTM having ASD or mental illness.

It appears those of us who sit on the fence are not entitled to be there. Those who cannot be bullied get shouted down.

I have been called the following :

Hand Maiden
Trans Ally
Not part of the sisterhood
Delusional
Captured
Shameful
Mentally ill
A liar (frequently)
A man

None apply to me.

Am I being unreasonable to ask for some understanding and compassion for trans people who don't fit the stereotypes listed?

So we have female women and male women.

You must know this is utter semantic nonsense.

Nah. I've only met one person who has a slightly different viewpoint and they are really only concerned in relation to transwomen in women's sport and completely unconcerned about every other aspect.

Everyone else I've ever encountered and who this has come up with is very much un-bothered. Trans hate isn't mainstream at all.

The absolute piss take is to refer to adult human females aka women as Cis, a term coined by a German pedophile apologiser on a forum set up to support especially mothers is something else!

They’re still women though, just have different sexual attraction. You speak like trans people/women are a homogeneous group. What about trans women offenders? How do you explain them?

Would you like to me to define what a male person is?

A male person is one who has a body formed around the production of small gametes regardless of whether those gametes are ever produced, are being produced or have been produced.

What has this got to do with how to tell the difference between a male person with a transgender identity and a male person without one please?

Where’s the trans hate?

No we’re not. I don’t care if a man wants to present as a stereotypical woman. He can do that in nearly all circumstances. He just can’t be in female single sex spaces.

We have women registered female at birth , and trans women registered male at birth. This isn’t new terminology and it certainly isn’t nonsense.

The definitions using 'cis' are a good reminder that the term 'cis' is meaningless because the term includes any male person who has a DSD yet has a body that is **formed around the production of small gametes that has any degree of sensitivity to any of the testosterone that body produces.

There is no word left for female people.

Because even male people are now saying they are also ‘female’ . When ^^ female means only a person of the sex category where that person's body has been formed around the production of large gametes, regardless of whether the body does, has or ever will produce those large gametes. ie that requires the presence of ovaries or ovarian tissue - never testes.

In fact, we now have examples of many male people declaring that they are female people. So even the word for female has become meaningless in that sense.

But 'cis' is a* *word that was repurposed from its original usage and is meaningless for the purpose of discussing female people in its current usage. It has been used in academic papers as well in an attempt at using inclusive language which then renders the papers meaningless because the term is not describing a unique grouping of human bodies, even when it claims to be doing just that.

To see how this works, we have been told that 'girl' and 'woman' both now include:

1 Male person who has been incorrectly registered as a female at birth, but has a male body **.
2 Any male person has now claimed a transgender identity using those labels.
3 And any person who has a female body ^^.

Under the label of 'girl' and 'woman', extreme transgender activists have been telling us for years that those labels break down into two types of girls or women:

Cis and Transwomen/transgirls.

These terms mean:

Cis
= (1) Male person who has been incorrectly registered as a female at birth, but has a male body **
and
= (3) Any person who has a female body^^
Trans
= (2) Any male person has now claimed a transgender identity using those labels.

Therefore there is no unique word to mean female people who have a body ^^ formed around the production of large gametes.

Cis is meaningless as a unique description for female people and it always was. It is also misogynistic because it leaves female people with no unique word for their needs.

So men who say they are women NEED women to be there or they will cease to exist?

If someone's birth isn't registered does that mean they have no sex?

If you treat that person as if they were any other man in all aspects of life where men and women are treated differently then yes you are erasing what it is to be a trans woman from public life. Being trans is not about clothes/ fashion,

Excluding people from a group/space not set up for them isn't hate, it is applying criteria.

An 28yo can't go to secondary school as a pupil, excluded based on age. It isn't hate.

A fully limbed person could be excluded from a group for amputees. It isn't hate.

Men, even those who identify as transwomen can be excluded from female single sex groups / spaces as confirmed by the Supreme Court. That isn't hate either.

Duplicated

Pretending that men are women is a nonsense and has led to some appalling treatment meted out to women and girls. Much of it illegally as the Supreme Court recently clarified.

You seriously have to ask what a woman is? Have we really reached the point where (presumably) grown adults are needing it explained as to what a woman is?

So you are saying that if I don’t agree that Transwomen are women then I’m erasing them?

It seems to be thought to be a gotcha. I don't think that it will quite work the way they think.

Like many other GC feminists, I have compassion for anyone else who finds they don't fit neatly into the traditional gender stereotypes. That applies to men as well as women.

I don't care how anyone identifies or what clothes they wear.

I do care when women are silenced and expected to act as a shield against male violence. I do care when women are expected to move over and make space for men in activities or areas that are supposed to be single sex.

If someone isn't trying to co-opt women's language, take women's spaces, or erode women's voices, while simultaneously respecting the safety and rights of women, then they're fine.

Unfortunately OP, all the unpleasant things you mention are real. We know not every trans identifying man falls into one of those dangerous categories. That doesn't make any of it less true though. That may be uncomfortable for others within the trans community, but there's nothing we can do about that. Facts are facts. We know that it's only a minority of men who are rapists but we treat all strange men as if they could be, by excluding them from spaces where women are vulnerable. That's not insulting to men - in the same way that trans identifying men shouldn't be insulted by the protections that remain in place for women.

Decent men, however they identify, care about women's rights. Invading our spaces is never OK and yet we're the ones criticised again, and again, and again, and again for not sharing our spaces, of not budging over, and of not being kind.

Women are angry. Frustrated.

The kindness shown to the trans identifying men doesn't extend to us. Not ever. We are demonised.

Trans idenitifying men who speak out to say they won't be following the law and they don't care are lauded for their bravery.

Fuck the women who can't access single sex spaces now because their rights don't matter.

People who aren't particularly engaged with this subject will have no idea just how badly our rights have been eroded, and what's been taken over the years. A vague notion of everyone just being kind is lovely - but where is the kindness to women?

I understand your point OP but I think you also need to consider the fact that many women are very upset that our rights are never centred. Even in conversations about women, our rights are secondary to what (many) trans identifying men are demanding. We matter too but no bastard ever seems to acknowledge that.

We just want women and girls to keep their spaces and sports. If a man wants to muscle in on these and we say, "No", this is because we are absolutely wanting to deny them access to women's spaces and sports. And this isn't hate - just as us not wanting a cheetah to race us in the 100m doesn't mean we hate cheetahs. But not wanting men in our sports or public spaces isn't the same as erasing trans folk from public life - you surely see that?

So are you saying all males are excluded from public life because they are excluded from female spaces?

Mostly people are treated as people.

Their sex should only come into it where it matters.

When should gender matter so much it overrides sex?

OP, your questions were answered, in details even, but you chose to disregard the replies because you did not like them.

Instead of actually reading the answers and considering them, you have decided to create yet another inflammatory thread. Do you think that if you keep doing the same thing you will eventually see different results?

It sounds like you’re saying that, in order for trans people to exist, women have to hand over their rights to single sex spaces or trans people will either cease to exist or vanish from public life. Is that what you mean?

"If you treat that person as if they were any other man in all aspects of life where men and women are treated differently then yes you are erasing what it is to be a trans woman from public life. Being trans is not about clothes/ fashion"

Have you posted the neurological markers shared by all people with transgender identities that can be used to diagnose someone as 'transgender'?

Just checked, there has been no evidence linked. So, no evidence that having a transgender identity is anything but a person's philosophical belief about their identity.