Muslim women who dress modestly...

[TreatTreat]

If you're at the beach and you want to paddle in the sea, are you able to roll up your trousers? Genuinely wondering as I saw a muslim family on the beach today having great fun. The kids were paddling in the sea. The women weren't but this question sprung in my head.

😴

you know what you are.

I am not arguing with an indoctrinated child.

Or maybe they were trying hard to fit in the teenage party culture because of the pressure of the society around them and as they grew they realised it was as great as it was made to look like. Maybe they played the role that the white saviour wanted them to play? Do you think its helping to support a young teen to act against values they believed in their whole life? Believe me, teens know how to play people like you, I ve seen it plenty.

Yup, thread playing out as initially suspected. 😒

Totally brainwashed by a ‘religion’ invented by men.

To get back to the subject, it's been barely more than a century since we saw the last of the Victorian bathing machines, which were ludicrous portable changing rooms pushed into the sea so that women didn't have to cross the beach in their scandalous swimwear with their shocking, shocking ankles on display

Can we pleeease not go back to this ridiculousness of making everything sexual? Because we KNOW what filthy buggers the Victorians really were, utter sexual fuck-ups like all pious types. Though building such machines would create some much-needed employment I suppose.

@Ddakji so all the white non religious men i know want me to dress the way I do..... ok?
But the white non religious women don't want me to....

Ok! That doesn't make sense.

Women telling women to not wear what they want to wear because they think men have dictated to them, is just as oppressive as the idea that men are dictating to them what to wear.

Just let women wear what they want. Geez

It would be more helpful for you to quote my post that you’re replying to as this doesn’t make much sense.

Unfortunately until people can freely choose whether to join the Muslim faith and then come and go as they pleaae with full equality, praying together and so on for women I don't buy much notion of choice at all.
There seems to be in some areas too much coercion and pressure.
It must be heart breaking for some girls seeing other girls living normal lives and free to marry who they want when they want, if ever.
And just live free

We had this ourselves, until quite recently within the Catholic Community and thankfully we have managed to shake it off.

What we have now in some area is literally a two three tier system where some girls of the Muslim faith have less rights afforded to them than the girls they sit next too

The un convention rights of the child, under 18 is a child :the right to express their views abd wishes in all matters affecting them and have their views taken seriously.
Children can choose their own thoughts, opinions and religion.
Right to privacy
Educate the child so they develop their own personality, talent and ability, understand their own rights and respect others

Etc.

They are free

@Ddakji so all the white non religious men i know want me to dress the way I do..... ok?
But the white non religious women don't want me to....

Ok! That doesn't make sense.

Women telling women to not wear what they want to wear because they think men have dictated to them, is just as oppressive as the idea that men are dictating to them what to wear.

Just let women wear what they want. Geez

this one

Maybe so. I was trying to point out that I reserve a fair amount of cynicism when I hear the ' completely free will' argument, because of these earlier experiences. But regardless, it's none of mine or anyone's else's business what women wear. I didn't feel ' played ' at all; I acted like any good friend would do in those circumstances where they've been asked for help by a friend who is being abused. I tend to listen to victims voices rather than naysayers who think they're going through a ' phase' and ' don't know what's good for them'. If someone of any age is being kept under lock and key and prevented from leaving the house, it IS abuse.

What you described sounds like normal teenage behaviour not abuse.

In fact in highschool I had non - Muslim friends sneak out to meet boyfriends which they weren't allowed to do and I was the one covering for them because the mums trusted me (I was supposedly the well behaved one : p)

Similarly they changed clothes into more revealing outfits behind their parents back when sneaking out.

We had that too with a group of my sisters friends, some were Eastern European non Muslims and some were English non muslims . And hiding their drinks in Boost bottles. Of course my sisters didn't drink but theyd come to our house and get ready and go out especially on valentines day the night outs were extra hilarious. The only thing my mum (who would wear full niqaab) used to get pissed off about was the utter chaos in the bedrooms theyd leave behind! Typical teenage behaviour.

And i also remember when my next door neighbour Melissa (in her 20s) would bring her boyfriends home after a night out and the kick offs that would happen between her mum and Melissa.

Everyone has boundaries and rules in place for their children whilst they are under their roof. You dont need to be of faith for that. It's just how it is. So are we then oppressive to our children for taking away their free will and having rules in place?

Have you missed the part where they were prevented from leaving the house by a padlock being put on the front door? Where as a 16 year old teenager, they were threatened with being taken out of the country to marry someone abroad, so they asked me to hide their passport? Where they were not allowed to have non Muslim friends? Where their education was threatened to be withdrawn if they didn't comply? I don't think any of that is acceptable, protective caring parent behaviour. How do you think social services would see it? It's abuse.

Yes I'm sure they didn't exaggerate anything when talking to their white friend that was ready to jump in and save them lol
Abuse can and does happen, but you knew so many, doesn't that make you think?
If they were sneaking out at night to go clubs and drinking, I would have locked the front door too 🙄

So, you don't believe any of their experiences? Call me naive, but I did and wasn't prepared to turn a blind eye. There are rules and boundaries set by parents, obviously, but when liberty has been withdrawn and young women are being coerced and bullied and threatened with marriage to strangers they've never met before, it's a whole different thing. It's the type of thing that would now hopefully be picked up by safeguarding leads and ss; not so much thirty years ago.

Threatening to send kids back home is a very common and normal thing to do amongst immigrants. You have the option to send your teens to their grandma, it's the same. Just the grandma is abroad! It is good parenting to keep your young teens from going out drinking and sleeping around, at least in many parents point of view.
Forced marriages are a no no but arranged marriages are something completely different.
Didn't happen to your friends so was probably empty threats wasn't it.
Not saying it doesn't happen in some communities but it isn't that common. What's common is young teen girls using the forced marriage line to get white people on their side so they re free to do what they want.
Most teens think their parents are unreasonably strict so no difference there.
The only difference between those families boundaries is that you didn't agree with it, it doesn't make it abuse.

I think we need to have a very honest discussion on this. In a society which aims for equality between the sexes we need to ensure that there is no support of ideologies which have embedded restrictions on women living their day to day lives.

it is up to individual women if they want to abide by these rules but society as a whole needs to show and clearly state its disapproval of institutions which treat women as having lesser freedoms and autonomy than men. We must also remember that women’s “free choice” to act in accordance with the restrictions set out in the ideology they follow, ideep down, is not”free choice” at all but choice shaped by that ideology.

We must set aside cultural sensitivities and condem at every turn the subordination of women. It’s not acceptable from Andrew Tate, it’s not acceptable from an Inman, it should not be acceptable for anyone in some of the niche Christian faiths who quote Paul to get women to dress modestly. Not teach etc. I would also include men who tell women to shut up and cause them to lose jobs etc when they stand up for their freedom and dignity. These men(and enabling women) are also abusers

We should have a very specific crime of misogyny that includes any institution having lesser freedoms for women preaching these things from any religion or ideology should be a crime. There should be zero tolerance of men suggesting/demanding women should act in certain ways. This needs to be fully explored in schools. Every boy and girl should be taught it is fundamentally wrong to apply different rules to men and women regardless of where the ideology comes from, the Bible, the Quran, Andrew Tate or Tik tok..We can’t be telling boys it is wrong to treat women as less than in one in one lesson then telling them to respect religions that have this embedded in them in another. We need to be very clear with the messaging here. The can be no room for ambiguity. Anyone coming into the country who does not fully understand and practice this needs to be refused entry.

Organised religion is outdated and has no role outside individual beliefs in modern society, except where it applies to a country's traditions which in Western Europe is either Christianity or older pagan tradition, eg celebrating Christmas/easter, May Day, solstice, equinox etc.

We'll never agree on this. I think it frightening that you consider this in any way ' normal ' parenting. It's so far beyond what is morally, let alone legally, right that if you can't see that, I can't help. And attitudes like yours is how familial abuse goes on behind closed doors undetected and remains unchecked. And why do you keep on referring to me as a ' white saviour'? I can only assume this speaks to your own inherent bigotry of how you consider different mindsets as a somehow homogenous thing, according to their skin colour or race:. People care about the mistreatment of others because simply, they care, and thankfully most of us aren't quick to dismiss victims abuse accounts as a ' folly' or disregard their experiences because we've decided they're wrong.

Actually , threatening to send a child to another country away from their home and friends for not obeying their parents is not normal behaviour and I would classify it as emotional abuse. Most parents, if they value their relationship with their child do not clamp down on their kids unless they are in danger, they know their kids are probably having some drinks at 15 with their mates. Their 16 year old daughter is probably having sex with their boyfriend. Because that’s what they did. The decent parent equips their child with the skills to handle these parts of growing up.

Threatening to send a child to probably a different continent if the don’t toe the line is abusive and I would be immediately reporting the parents to the authorities if I witnessed this type of abuse of any of my child’s friends- it’s disgusting.

My husband is an immigrant and has never threatened to send our children anywhere. What a disturbing notion of "normal."

Have you been lobbying to force nuns to wear normal clothes and get rid of the habit and veil?

In relation to all your paragraphs other than the last one, this is not what this thread is about, which is about what people are wearing.

If you are aware of specific misogynistic actions or behaviour either in western societies or other societies, be specific about what is happening, be certain about evidence and make sure it is not misreporting by media, and then do a petition to raise awareness about that specific issue.

Otherwise you come across as a bigot.

In relation to western societies I think we should get porn off the shelf - porn should go back to being only found in adult only shops, get porn off the net completely as it is being viewed constantly by children etc. Make it illegal to show girls and women in underwear everywhere. Deal with the grooming gangs and all other trafficking and the disgusting activities on the dark net far more effectively.

Your last paragraph is unacceptable and shows ignorance. You should really be focusing on the issues in my above paragraph.

What you described from your friends if it’s true, has absolutely no basis in Islam

i suggest you go study the religion before misinterpreting your friends parents ideologies with the religion Islam

honestly I feel sad for you all for your lack of knowledge and understanding on the matter

I think it’s time you met REAL Muslims who practise and know the faith correctly

please don’t worry about us

we have the World’s Freedom

we live like Queens, darlings

we really really do and I don’t intend to exaggerate or be funny here

Most of the points you mentioned are cultural practices, or done in the name of Islam
it is not Islam itself
I challenge you to look into for yourself with an open mind

Once again
I thank you for looking out for us Muslim women, much appreciated, but we are doing just fine!

Why is saying organised religion has no part in western society (which has become largely secular appaling) which is stating that the history of Western Europe is largely based on Christianity and pre Christian pagan religions (an historical fact) bigotry? Do you not agree with this history. A history that has shaped the traditions and institutions of those societies. I’m sorry but these are all facts. It’s not bigotry to state a true history of a society is it?

Nuns/clerics etc have chosen a vocation, this is the uniform of that vocation. They have chosen to take that role, they are free to leave it. I’ve seen bins paddling in the sea, lifting their clothing to their knees. Our Franciscan nun head teacher was seen in a local pub on more than one occasion. Our school had many strong women teachers who were nuns. They certainly weren’t being kept in check by any men.

what women wear, when that is decided by men is very much what this thread is about. Misogyny

The fact that you regard as a decent parent someone that is OK with their 15-16 year olds drinking and having sex tells everything
Sending kids back home means sending them to stay with family. Where did you think those kids are sent, to sleep on the street?
Plenty of examples here where teens go live with their father/granma/aunty so they get away from bad company, so what's the issue there?