Muslim women who dress modestly...

[TreatTreat]

If you're at the beach and you want to paddle in the sea, are you able to roll up your trousers? Genuinely wondering as I saw a muslim family on the beach today having great fun. The kids were paddling in the sea. The women weren't but this question sprung in my head.

For you it’s not, but let’s not pretend there aren’t gender issues in Islam.

Relaxing on a beach in the sun, dressed head to toe in black, doesn’t sound fun. Unless you’re somehow able to cool off in ways others can’t.

You probably don’t see the issue because you’ve lived your whole life knowing the expectations on you. You’ve seen women around you advocate it. But I do feel it’s oppressive and I would feel for anyone who limited their access to parts of life just because they’re a woman. You deserve equal access to everything in life. Access the education, a career, independence, choice of dress, hobbies, household responsibilities. I’m not saying you’d want everything, but having a choice about it, without influence from your religion or culture. I would hate for my daughter to miss out on parts of life just because her religions makes her feel she should.

No one said you need to wear black on the beach, and if one needs to cool off they will get in the water.
Who told you I grew up with those expectations, you don't know how I grew up.
If something doesn't sound fun, we'll, don't do it.
But you are just going by your uninformed opinion
And I have plenty of choices, I access healthcare(why would I not), have hobbies, share household duties with my husband... A lot of assumptions being made about what life for Muslim women is, where do you get your information that you refuse to believe what actual Muslim women are telling you? Do you think you know better then us about our life?
I have no words

But if you don't wear a niqab, why not reframe it positively as, "OK, at least this way I am respecting the local culture and fitting in with English norms, and not acting in a provocative, inappropriate and alienating way?"

I missed off posting my first paragraph which was, "It's genuinely terrible if you feel you would be physically attacked for wearing anything and I hope you feel safe in your daily life." @thehazelcritic

Why not leave her alone and not threaten her with saying that she's disrespectful, isn't normal and acting in a provocative, inappropriate and alienating way? She's not at fault for arseholes abusing her or other women, she hasn't made them do it through wearing clothes you don't like, she hasn't forced them to threaten and assault women for not exposing the amount of skin you want to be able to see and to satisfy the random male gaze.

Women have no business telling other women they are responsible for being attacked on the basis of what they want to wear - it's accepted as wrong to do that to a woman who wears a micro skirt and vest top, it should be equally unacceptable to do it to a woman who doesn't.

Fgs. I don't threaten women in niqab. I see more and more of them every day in the streets here and ignore them as they seem so keen to be invisible.

If she says she can't wear niqab, though, why not reframe it as, OK, I'll integrate with the local culture then. Why not? I did when I lived abroad.

Becoming a muslim is not reverting.

I do hear you. But at the same time isn’t it inherently restrictive having to worry all the time about exposing any part of your body while in public? Like lifting up your trousers on the beach to paddle in the water? Wearing wet leggings is hardly comfortable and what if it’s hot and you just want to relax rather than get wet?

I don’t think it’s any better for women in any other culture of course. I’m frequently disturbed by the threads that pop up on mumsnet about girls and how they should be made to wear shorts under skirts and be taught to “sit like a lady” to avoid flashing their knickers and things.

Yep, I wish people would get rid of this notion The idea of reversion was designed as a ploy to encompass the those practicing other Abrahamic faiths. Islam was designed by men using typical techniques that had been used by conquering armies for hundreds of years to assimilate conquered lands. Islam was created by a bunch of guys to conquer lands to gain access to the Mediterranean via Israel. It was basically designed to increase the power of those men. One of the main focuses was to ensure that there were sufficient children being born to increase the army/followers and to ensure the legitimacy of heirs hence heavy control of women

Thank you for sharing your view — I understand where you’re coming from.

However, my post wasn’t about downplaying serious issues in the world or ignoring where religion has been misused. It was specifically about how many Muslim women in the UK (including myself) actively choose to dress modestly or wear the hijab — not because we’re forced, but as a personal, empowered decision tied to our faith, identity, and values.

It's important to recognise that while oppression exists in some contexts, that shouldn't invalidate the experiences of women who choose modesty out of self-respect and autonomy. In a society that values freedom, all women — whether they choose to dress modestly or not — should have that choice without being stereotyped or judged through a single lens.

We can absolutely criticise abuse where it exists, but we shouldn’t assume that every religious expression is automatically rooted in control. Many women speak for themselves — we just ask that others listen to us privileged people when we speak from our "bubble", as you so eloquently put it.

That is really sad
Im not Muslim but lots of my extended family are and my sister is. She’s deffo come on beach days and just worn a loose fitting rash vest and swim leggings, in the sea, no issues.

Although to counter that…You never know what people are thinking though and their motives. People might see me in a swimming costume and DH jumping in the sea with our kids with me stood just on the edge…..may assume I am Muslim and think ‘Aw how sad’ and may wonder why I’m not going in…I hate sea water and have very sensitive skin.

I can't scroll back but did anyoine answer my question as to where choice comes from if someone is born Muslim (? Religion not a race) and is raised with heavy teaching about religion and then isn't allowed to leave it?

Whilst it doesn’t invalidate you in the uk it shouldn’t take long to realise the law is with you.

I don’t care If you chose to wear a hijab. I would rather think about those who wear it happily but still have no choice according to the men in their life. I’ve seen my friends daughter throw hers away. She’s allowed to do that. Some girls/women are not given that choice.

Since the punishment for apostasy in Islam is death, it's maybe not something people feel free to chat about.

There are forums I won't link here (but easily googled) for ex-muslims who discuss what they endured before and after they left the religion. It's heart-breaking reading.

Nowhere in the Quran is death mandated for apostasy. What is in the Quran is:verse 2:256 (Surah Al-Baqarah) "There is no compulsion in religion.
Cultural and political issues are a different stories.
Same like FGM or honour killing that are linked to certain countries or cultures, but are conveniently attributed to Islam.
Anyway, white saviour syndrome is strong in this thread.
I'll leave you to it.

Hi I just saw your comment now and can see someone has replied stating the punishment is death.

This is incorrect as in Islam we believe in the right to exercise free will.

In fact there is no punishment for leaving the religion.

If you want to see an Islamic source explaining this clearly just check below:

www.alislam.org/articles/is-it-true-that-if-muslim-leaves-or-denounces-his-faith-in-islam-he-will-be-killed/

The punishment for apostasy is not death, actually there is no punishment for it because religion cannot be forced and free will is fundamental in Islam.

Think of it logically; how can you ever force someone to believe in something whether it be a religion or concept?

Therefore it doesn't need a punishment and Islam is very clear about that. However, culturally those in power (again it's always men) have decided to take it on themselves to encourage honour killings and the likes for such 'sins'.

Please dont speak to me about having the law with me LOL. The law is on the side of the law- whatever is in their best interest. Every country is oppressive in its own way..like I said my original post wasn’t denying that coercion exists in some contexts — it was pushing back against the assumption that all visibly Muslim women are victims of it. I mean I dont even here this much protests for the Jewish women. And they have it worse.

what a funny thread

So full of white women horrified at Muslim men who tell Muslim women what they should and should not wear that they want to- checks notes- tell Muslim women what they should and should not wear

It isn't Islam that oppresses women, it is governments. Governments made up of men. The prophet Mohammed (pbuh) made it very clear that women should not be oppressed.

Wow
So many of you SO invested in Muslim women!
I actually feel special you give me so much head space
thanks guys!!!
I’m finding all your opinions and ideas quite hilarious 🤣

This. The irony. The arrogance! Just say you’re racist with your chest, the wimps!

I quit caring a long time ago. I used to, especially growing up in a hugely diverse multicultural city where the majority of my friends were Muslim girls who had to hide their friendships with non Muslims as their parents didn't approve or asked me to keep hold of their passports because they foresaw a forced marriage ' back home' on the cards or who asked to borrow my clothes so they could dress up how they chose away from the prying gaze of family. I understood how difficult and complex the situation was and how conflicted they were - between living a western lifestyle with boyfriends and drinking and clubbing and the virtuous lifestyle that was imposed at home. I supported them with all the vigour a teenager could: I helped them escape from padlocked houses in the family home, batted off questions from multiple nosey ' aunties', kept their counsel when trying to find hostels to live in to break free. But in their mid to late twenties these friends mostly submitted to the will of their family : donned a hijab, declared their full commitment to Islam, and more often than not agreed to the arranged marriage. You can call it free will or empowerment or freedom of choice, but I knew these women so so well and it wasn't any such thing, they were broken from the community pressure and the very real fear of being permanently ostracized from the family unit.

Islam isn't a race.

It is not racist to not want your own essentially secular country to be taken over by any violent and oppressive religious dogma.

The government of the 90% Muslim country of Kyrgyzstan have recently banned the niqab for security reasons and also because it is against their culture. Are they racist against themselves?