Why can't people respect the rules around toilets!?!?

[coffeeandmycats]

I’m really angry and just need to get this off my chest. Me and my sister run a small shop, just the two of us and a couple of customer toilets, one for biological women, one for men, signs on the door. Never had any trouble. Until today.
A regular female customer comes up looking pretty upset, says there’s a man in the women’s loo. I go in to check. At first it sort of looked okay, hair, maybe a trans woman? But then I heard a deep voice, saw stubble and a broad build, a wig that looked like a last-minute costume. It was clearly a bloke who didn’t pass. Not even close.
I said politely, this is the women’s loo, please leave. He stared at me and said flat out, “I was born female.” Not I identify as a woman, he literally claimed he was biologically female. I asked him to go and he refused.
So I rang 101, didn’t want drama and wasn’t sure what rights we had as shop owners. The police said we can’t challenge how someone describes themselves. If he says he was born female, that’s it. We’re not allowed to question it based on how he looks. And since no laws were broken, they won’t come unless he’s being abusive or refusing to follow reasonable requests after shouting multiple times.
They also confirmed that the new Supreme Court judgment about women-only spaces is civil law, not criminal. That means even though legally women are defined by birth, you still can’t challenge someone in the moment just because they say they’re female.
I looked into it after, and yep, the Supreme Court (in For Women Scotland v Scottish Ministers) ruled that “woman” in the Equality Act 2010 means biologically female. But that applies to protecting women-only spaces under civil law. It doesn’t let us stop someone on the spot from walking into the wrong loo. The police still can’t act if someone says they’re female, even if it’s clearly false.
This bloke walked into the women’s loo, lied about being born female, made women uncomfortable, and we’ve got no legal leg to stand on to stop him. Women customers left feeling unsafe.
So what exactly are we supposed to do? Sit back and let it happen because the law only kicks in later on? Are we just meant to trust someone who’s lying about their sex to decide what sexed spaces they can use?
It feels like women’s rights are just words, no power in real life. Anyone else run into this mess in their business? I'm nearly losing my mind over how absurd this is.

Is it possible this was actually a transman ie a biological female, using the correct toilet?
I have no idea what the right thing to do here is. It seems like a minefield tbh. Maybe it's better to just have single-cubicle toilets which aren't sex-specific? I realise you can't change that though as it's not your building.

On a completely different note, I've always wondered how you get the cats in a cat cafe to get on...I have 3 at home, and the two boys get on mainly fine but the girl cat (who is the sister of one of the boys) absolutely hates them both and they torment her whenever given the chance. I can't imagine having more (although I'd dearly love to).

She can't do that if they aren't self contained rooms including a washbasin.

Fair point, my bad.

”Unisex” maybe?

Why would a trans man be wearing a wig to look like a woman?

would people agree that the law needs to be clearer and better defined? seeing as even on this thread people come to different conclusions.

Erm, same point applies.

If there are cubicles with gaps below and above the doors and shared wash basins they have to be single sex.

The law itself is clear.

What needs to be clarified is what enforcement options people have when confronted with people who persist in using single sex spaces for members of the opposite sex.

For all the posters suggesting that we should replace all single sex communal toilets with single user toilets have you considered that this will increase queuing times in busy places. Single user toilets take up more room than communal so there will be fewer toilets and each person will take longer to use them due to washing hands.

all cats should be the same sex to get along

She cannot do this legally as she has confirmed that the loos are cubicles within a larger space with communal hand washing facilities.

Unisex loos HAVE to be completely self contained.

What I would do is take the loo signs saying Male or Female down and replace them with pictures of different cats. Then you can have a key for the Bengal loo and a key for the Siamese loo and just make sure that you hand the right key out depending on whether you feel the person is a Bengal or Siamese. No one can get offended then surely?

Because this apparently happened today (presumably before noon) and yet the poster is not working today, likely the busiest day of the week. This apparently happened in a small cat cafe with tardis loos. And this apparently happened to someone who runs a small cafe that charges admission and yet is not aware of who is in their premises at the time until they turn up in the loo.

If the OP wants to discuss a hypothetical situation, she should post a (believable) hypothetical, and post it where people interested in these hypotheticals can discuss to their hearts' content. But somehow I think the poster may have other aims in mind.

Or she could be targeted by others. Honestly, I would ask for this thread to be deleted as it has identifying information.

Which aside from failing to meet to legal standard for an allowable unisex toilet (Each toilet in a single fully enclosed room with hand washing facilities), almost certainly counts as indirect sex discrimination since more men will feel comfortable using the "Cubicles only" room than women feel comfortable using the "Cubicles and Urinals" room.

And let's get real, there is a subset of men who will actively choose the Cubicles Only room for taking a dump either because the room without urinals is less smelly to spend a bit of time in, or because they actively like leaving mess for women to deal with. (That last group is nothing to do with trans women BTW, it's a known behaviour of some men).

Just label them both unisex and the issue goes away.

You won't get a TRA hassling you then because using unisex loos isn't exciting to them.

Quite frankly OP they said they were born female, and even if you think they look male now, if they were born female they have every right to use that bathroom. On an unrelated note, how do you avoid toxoplasmosis from the combination of multiple cats and running a cafe?

I agree but the remaining option, which is doing nothing, means that someone will get grief to some degree, and that's why is galls me to make the suggestion.

6 individual toilet cubicles for a small shop? Most small cafes have 1 or 2 gender neutral, disabled accessible/ baby change toilets. Maybe 2 or 3 of those might work better?

Unfortunately there's no way of challenging that won't cause upset. However, the law is the law and as the one providing the toilets you need to uphold the single sex conditions.

It is not illegal to note someone is a trans woman. You don't even have to. You can just say the toilets operate under the single sex exemptions and you're sorry but you don't believe they are entitled to use the female toilets. It doesn't matter if they say they are a biological woman. No arguing or back and forth, your decision is final.

A trans person who is trying to access the opposite sex facilities has no legal right to do so. They can't make a claim against you legally.

However, women who have been denied the single sex toilets that appeared to be provided can make a claim against you.

It is extremely unlikely you will mistake a woman for a trans woman (man) and vice versa, especially after speaking to them. And if you do mis-sex a woman she may be upset but will likely understand. It would be an honest mistake made whilst trying to uphold the law. Just as sometimes valid ID's are rejected as staff have genuine but not always correct suspicions. These mistakes are permitted so long as they aren't intentionally targeted or prejudiced.

What are these toilet rules’ ??

are they clearly displayed for all to see??

Given that this debate is going to continue for the foreseeable future, it's probably the line of least resistance. The fact is that most employers will do nothing 🤷

If the law seems complicated, an easier way to think about it is to forget about the trans stuff and imagine you found a random bloke in the female toilets (you did).

You are entitled to kick them out, they are entitled to sue you for doing so, which they won't because they don't have a case if they are male.

I've never known a small shop with 2 toilets, one of which is for biological women. The majority of small shops rarely have a toilet and if they do, is one toilet for everybody.

I fully support women's right to their own spaces but posts like this are becoming ridiculous.

If you're sure it's a man, refuse to give him the key to the women's.

If he wants to sue you, he'll have to prove you are wrong.

Which he won't be able to do.

If it's a transman who looks so much like a man that you could reasonably think she is a man, you are also protected under the EA2010.

Isn't it interesting that on all of these threads, everybody, whether they are on the trans activist end of the spectrum or the gender critical end, or anywhere in between, assumes that trans people cannot simply be trusted to respect women and respect the law.