Why can't people respect the rules around toilets!?!?

[coffeeandmycats]

I’m really angry and just need to get this off my chest. Me and my sister run a small shop, just the two of us and a couple of customer toilets, one for biological women, one for men, signs on the door. Never had any trouble. Until today.
A regular female customer comes up looking pretty upset, says there’s a man in the women’s loo. I go in to check. At first it sort of looked okay, hair, maybe a trans woman? But then I heard a deep voice, saw stubble and a broad build, a wig that looked like a last-minute costume. It was clearly a bloke who didn’t pass. Not even close.
I said politely, this is the women’s loo, please leave. He stared at me and said flat out, “I was born female.” Not I identify as a woman, he literally claimed he was biologically female. I asked him to go and he refused.
So I rang 101, didn’t want drama and wasn’t sure what rights we had as shop owners. The police said we can’t challenge how someone describes themselves. If he says he was born female, that’s it. We’re not allowed to question it based on how he looks. And since no laws were broken, they won’t come unless he’s being abusive or refusing to follow reasonable requests after shouting multiple times.
They also confirmed that the new Supreme Court judgment about women-only spaces is civil law, not criminal. That means even though legally women are defined by birth, you still can’t challenge someone in the moment just because they say they’re female.
I looked into it after, and yep, the Supreme Court (in For Women Scotland v Scottish Ministers) ruled that “woman” in the Equality Act 2010 means biologically female. But that applies to protecting women-only spaces under civil law. It doesn’t let us stop someone on the spot from walking into the wrong loo. The police still can’t act if someone says they’re female, even if it’s clearly false.
This bloke walked into the women’s loo, lied about being born female, made women uncomfortable, and we’ve got no legal leg to stand on to stop him. Women customers left feeling unsafe.
So what exactly are we supposed to do? Sit back and let it happen because the law only kicks in later on? Are we just meant to trust someone who’s lying about their sex to decide what sexed spaces they can use?
It feels like women’s rights are just words, no power in real life. Anyone else run into this mess in their business? I'm nearly losing my mind over how absurd this is.

So as could be predicted by anyone with half a brain, this guidance is totally unenforcable! There's no way for you to prove that this person was trans. No way without invasive medical tests. So you're stuck. I'm afraid there's no easy way to actually kick this person out, who doesn't actually seem to have done anything wrong.

Meanwhile as a result of increasingly hostile rhetoric and this guidance, natal women who look butch/not feminine enough are being harassed:
Example - US (woman fired)
Example - US (woman harassed in toilets)
Example - Ireland (elderly woman beaten up)
Example - UK (train driver harrassed in general)
Example - UK (TERF harrassed due to alopecia)

If a person, that is any person, is harassing other people or acting in aggressive manner, kick them out. But she wasn't. She was just washing her hands and taking a piss. So leave her alone.

I've thought about it. How is it a threat to women If a man uses a separate women's toilet. Folk are becoming ridiculous.

“I believe the issue of trans women abusing women's single sex boundaries should be handled in the first instance the same way we handle other sexist or inappropriate social behaviour - by making it clear to the perpetrator that their behaviour is inappropriate and likely to cause distress, and educating them that men's presence in certain situations can have an adverse effect on women even if the man in question is not actively abusive. Reasonable people should understand, rethink their actions and not have to be told twice.
If it becomes a pattern of harassment or anti social behaviour by that individual then laws already exist to handle this.”

This made m me feel quite ill. Obviously I don’t agree with any of this , in any way shape or form.

you may have accidentally given the impression that because the EA is "one particular act of parliament", that the EA definition of sex only applies in limited circumstances.

The EA definition of sex only applies to interpreting the word sex as it is used in the equality act, for the purposes of setting out protections for people against discrimination on the basis of “sex”. Thats it. That is exactly what I said, and what I meant to imply. Because it’s legally correct.

Couple of things - firstly I'd think it unlikely that someone would sue you for discrimination about toilet access as this would cost them money.

It's far more likely that they'd take to reviews/social media to label your business as transphobic. That would be my primary concern with regards to potential retaliation and effects on the business.

Secondly, you should check your insurance and what it has to say regarding access to hand washing facilities.

Unless you have sonething separate for this, then locking the toilets may put you in breach of your insurance (bff runs a cat cafe) as it restricts access to the sinks.

It's a really tricky one.

I absolutely trust trans women and share spaces (toilets and changing rooms) with them with absolutely no problem. Don't speak for me.

Yeah my dog can tell the difference between men and women, no matter how they identify.
l’d hire his services out to the OP except her cats probably wouldn’t like it.

Even the ones that are rapists?

It's also not for you to give the rights of woman who don't want to share spaces with men away. So lucky you to be happy, nobody else has to be.

Me too. I don’t know anyone woman in rl that has an issue with it either.

How do you know? How does your dog tell you 😁

Your judgementalism is showing. She was doing no harm so please be a place of tolerance and education and don't bow down to the hysterical among us who seem to think they're God's gift.

Would you be happy for there to be no single sex facilities? All toilets, changing rooms etc to be shared by men and women?

This sort of extreme view helps no-one. Most trans people just want to get on with their lives.

It's not draft law, it's already law. Only the EHRC guidance is a draft. In fact the SC judgement was clarifying existing law, i.e. it has always been the case that women's facitlities were for biological women. Self-ID has never been the law in this country and it needs to be kicked into the long grass. Furthermore, the SC judgement showed that a even GRC does not entitle the bearer to use the facilities of the opposite sex.

It's not an extreme view. Some men are rapists and some of those rapists identify as women.

Yes, I would.

The customer you phoned the police on will likely tell their friends how they were treated so hopefully they will avoid you for that reason

Possibly, yes, or if they're an activist they could equally get together a few of similar mind - very common in some Unis - and arrange a whole series of visits in the hope of disrupting OP's business

Perhaps an outside door with a keycode on each of the loo blocks would work, but it would be interesting to see if - should you refuse a transwoman the code - the police would regard that too as "a civil matter and nothing to do witth us"

No

All toilets wouldn’t bother me at all.
I don’t want to share a changing room with anyone, male or female, so only go to facilities with private/family cubicles on offer.

So you would happily strip off in front of strange men in a communal changing room?

I had the same thought. Male, dressed as female, deep voice, 6’4”, lining up to use the women’s toilets in a train station, he asked if I wanted to go first, I said no, he entered the end stall, I was 2 away. You could clearly hear the different ‘wee’ sound (men v woman) what were we supposed to say?

I could hardly challenge him? Everyone gave looks and said nothing, I really don’t know what the answer is! You have my sympathy.

It is not illegal to call a man a man.

It is not illegal to ask a person who appears male to leave a female space.

Of course. There's zero issue.

Yes the judgement is law: the guidance is draft. As I said.

The judgement clarified the meaning of sex , and women , men, as they appear in the EA 2010, for interpreting protections based on sex discrimination.
It did not say that OP must enforce the exclusion of people she believes based on appearance to be trans from the women’s toilets.

Lots of women don't want to come out of their cubicle and share a washing space with men.
Would you happily use a communal men's toilet?