Why can't people respect the rules around toilets!?!?

[coffeeandmycats]

I’m really angry and just need to get this off my chest. Me and my sister run a small shop, just the two of us and a couple of customer toilets, one for biological women, one for men, signs on the door. Never had any trouble. Until today.
A regular female customer comes up looking pretty upset, says there’s a man in the women’s loo. I go in to check. At first it sort of looked okay, hair, maybe a trans woman? But then I heard a deep voice, saw stubble and a broad build, a wig that looked like a last-minute costume. It was clearly a bloke who didn’t pass. Not even close.
I said politely, this is the women’s loo, please leave. He stared at me and said flat out, “I was born female.” Not I identify as a woman, he literally claimed he was biologically female. I asked him to go and he refused.
So I rang 101, didn’t want drama and wasn’t sure what rights we had as shop owners. The police said we can’t challenge how someone describes themselves. If he says he was born female, that’s it. We’re not allowed to question it based on how he looks. And since no laws were broken, they won’t come unless he’s being abusive or refusing to follow reasonable requests after shouting multiple times.
They also confirmed that the new Supreme Court judgment about women-only spaces is civil law, not criminal. That means even though legally women are defined by birth, you still can’t challenge someone in the moment just because they say they’re female.
I looked into it after, and yep, the Supreme Court (in For Women Scotland v Scottish Ministers) ruled that “woman” in the Equality Act 2010 means biologically female. But that applies to protecting women-only spaces under civil law. It doesn’t let us stop someone on the spot from walking into the wrong loo. The police still can’t act if someone says they’re female, even if it’s clearly false.
This bloke walked into the women’s loo, lied about being born female, made women uncomfortable, and we’ve got no legal leg to stand on to stop him. Women customers left feeling unsafe.
So what exactly are we supposed to do? Sit back and let it happen because the law only kicks in later on? Are we just meant to trust someone who’s lying about their sex to decide what sexed spaces they can use?
It feels like women’s rights are just words, no power in real life. Anyone else run into this mess in their business? I'm nearly losing my mind over how absurd this is.

Isn’t that what the Supreme Court ruling said though? Regardless of how he identifies, or how he looks, he must use the bathroom relating to his birth? He could well have been following the rules, not breaking them. You should be pleased.

How can it be illegal to judge someone on their appearance as to whether they’re a man or woman? This is what we all do every day.

I am so impressed with how quickly you got a response from 101, and how much detail they gave you.

Ah, fair enough. I did say if you weren't a cafe.
I love the idea of a cat cafe btw! How many cats do you have there? X

Im in for one billion trillion pounds

Could've been a transman, born biologically female and trying to follow the ruling to use the toilet aligned with your sex at birth.

thanks for this, but here is my dilemma - If I install locks on the doors and if a trans woman asks for the woman's key and says they were born biologically female (essentially lying), do I need to give them the woman's key? as I can't challenge them despite them looking (and almost certainly being) "male"?

if so what is the point of the SC judgement ?

You could offer to do a pussy inspection before handing over the keys to the ladies toilet?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

It does.

Who was this man talking to?

14 but they have rest days so normally around 8 out at one time. Honestly we have been doing this for 15 years now. When we started the business it was simple but now it feels like everyone threatens legal action for everything and it is all going down hill...

If the toilets say women's or female on the door
males may not enter no matter how they identify / dress / feel

If the toilets say men's or male on the door
females may not enter no matter how they identify / dress / feel

OF COURSE service providers have the right to challenge / prevent people breaking their rules

That was the WHOLE point of the FWS Supreme Court case.

Lesbians groups can exclude men even if those men call themselves lesbians.

You could keep the keys behind the counter, make one toilet female and the other unisex? Complete PITA though, sorry you have to deal with this OP

Glad you said it first!

I agree the judgement has created a right confusing mess.

Yes it’s not illegal for a trans woman to use the women’s toilet.

You do not need to enforce asking them to leave if they enter- the judgement doesn’t say this.

The draft EHRC guidance does say this if you have separate facilities for women and men and I agree if this becomes law it will be a legal minefield and god knows how providers will enforce. the guidance, however, is in draft and does not become statutory until it is approved by parliament. So at the moment you don’t have to do anything.

If the guidance does become law the easiest thing to do as a provider is to make all toilets unisex with lockable single cubicles.

It’s literally you threatening legal action against your own customer? And from what you’ve said you entered the toilet when they were washing their hands, demanded they go to the men’s to finish washing their hands, they said no and you phoned the police. Customer then sat back at the table and continued petting your cats, you happily taking their money.

The word biological is redundant when placed infront of the word woman

Toilets aside, if a man (or woman) is anywhere on your premises and refusing to leave at your request, it is absolutely a police matter. If you've been led to believe otherwise, I think you should make a complaint. The police should not be going round telling members of the public that they can't assist them in removing a person who is refusing to leave. They do it all the time.

according to google and various law posts and blogs, it is illegal for a business or their staff to do so. I think (and I could be wrong here) that essentially means another customer could challenge someone, but if a business challenges someone (especially if we get it wrong) we could be liable?

Hmmm unbelievably quick! Very detailed response…

Yes this could be discrimination

I thought (and I could be wrong) that the ruling said workplaces and schools must have separate toilets, and that staff and pupils must use the appropriate one. The ruling doesn’t apply to places open to the public? As I say, I may be wrong.

Sorry you had to deal with this OP, it’s a fucking minefield. Give your cats an extra big cuddle.

The ruling took legal effect the moment it was handed down.

If a space / service / post says "women" it is for females only.

The EHRC guidance cannot override the Supreme Court RULING

Would you force a suspected transman to use the women's?

You should probably make it clear that butch women or any woman who you deem insufficiently feminine is not welcome and will potentially ve subject to questioning about their sex and genitalia. I'd not be coming and would advise my (female) friends to avoid too

so does this mean essentially have a code on the toilets or a key is pointless, as realistically I have to hand over the key of either toilet to anyone who asks - if they say they were born biologically female?

Awful.