Why can't people respect the rules around toilets!?!?

[coffeeandmycats]

I’m really angry and just need to get this off my chest. Me and my sister run a small shop, just the two of us and a couple of customer toilets, one for biological women, one for men, signs on the door. Never had any trouble. Until today.
A regular female customer comes up looking pretty upset, says there’s a man in the women’s loo. I go in to check. At first it sort of looked okay, hair, maybe a trans woman? But then I heard a deep voice, saw stubble and a broad build, a wig that looked like a last-minute costume. It was clearly a bloke who didn’t pass. Not even close.
I said politely, this is the women’s loo, please leave. He stared at me and said flat out, “I was born female.” Not I identify as a woman, he literally claimed he was biologically female. I asked him to go and he refused.
So I rang 101, didn’t want drama and wasn’t sure what rights we had as shop owners. The police said we can’t challenge how someone describes themselves. If he says he was born female, that’s it. We’re not allowed to question it based on how he looks. And since no laws were broken, they won’t come unless he’s being abusive or refusing to follow reasonable requests after shouting multiple times.
They also confirmed that the new Supreme Court judgment about women-only spaces is civil law, not criminal. That means even though legally women are defined by birth, you still can’t challenge someone in the moment just because they say they’re female.
I looked into it after, and yep, the Supreme Court (in For Women Scotland v Scottish Ministers) ruled that “woman” in the Equality Act 2010 means biologically female. But that applies to protecting women-only spaces under civil law. It doesn’t let us stop someone on the spot from walking into the wrong loo. The police still can’t act if someone says they’re female, even if it’s clearly false.
This bloke walked into the women’s loo, lied about being born female, made women uncomfortable, and we’ve got no legal leg to stand on to stop him. Women customers left feeling unsafe.
So what exactly are we supposed to do? Sit back and let it happen because the law only kicks in later on? Are we just meant to trust someone who’s lying about their sex to decide what sexed spaces they can use?
It feels like women’s rights are just words, no power in real life. Anyone else run into this mess in their business? I'm nearly losing my mind over how absurd this is.

Well, sadly I can agree on that. Temperatures in the 40s in the UK by the end of the decade. And the world is doing precisely what about it? Bugger all, is what.

Where does it say you can be fined?

i don't want to disrespect anyone, i respect everyone equally, but another customer complained about them being there, and I think I have a legal duty to act but am unsure how.

Sadly the generation who need to be coming to with brilliant ideas to tackle this are too busy sharing their pronouns.

@coffeeandmycats i would get both toilets changed to cubicles with sinks.
You've stated you are situated near a LGBTQ club for university students. You are bound to attract some of them.

Yes it is expense but you are now worried you'll be fined. Don't go there.
Fwiw I live with a trans young adult and they respect other's boundaries. Not everyone does.
The issue is the bar was lowered for GRC, no surgery required. Fuelled by stonewall.

Oh, I did get a bit confused.

It’s not criminal. If it is tell me the offence…..

There actually aren't any laws which prohibit a man from enter a women's bathroom - as long as they are not entering the bathroom for illegal purposes

You also have to remember the police are TOLD what to do. Anyone who breaks away from that gets the sack and I mean instantly. It’s going on all the time believe me.

we would need permission from the building owner, as we rent and don't own the property, plus the work may cost upwards of 15k according to my sister

Well it gives you some practical advice as to what to do.

Make your signage crystal clear. Your existing male and female toilets should be single sex as they don’t meet the criteria for unisex.

Make your disabled toilet a unisex and disabled toilet (I’ve seen this at National Trust properties).

Train your staff in what the law is and how to sensitively handle any situations arising.

And the Green Party has been taken over by people who only care about their own identities, and care nothing, it seems, for the environment.

yeh the police don't enforce civil law only criminal as I found out. So essentially we get stuck between a rock and a hard place.

It should have been deal with 20 years ago.

thanks for this, I do appreciate the help, my only qualm with this is I'm not sure we can, as I think our insurance requires a disabled only toilet, i'd have to speak to the company, but also taking away the disabled space may create a whole new host of legal issues.

I assume the reason the law is like this is because biologically male or female cleaners may enter toilets to clean them, or younger children may go with their parents etc into the bathroom etc.

How would you describe a trans woman?

Around a third of people surveyed thought 'trans woman' meant someone born female.

The language is all messed up.

A 'trans woman' is a man, who is pretending to be a woman.

Arguably, far sooner.

By trying to force me to call them trans women you are not respecting MY right not to recognise them as women, and to only use a sex based definition of the word "women".

This is as offensive as trying to force me to observe Ramadan and pray to Allah when I am not a Muslim and have no interest in becoming one.

Women are allowed to have words for themselves, as well as spaces, which do not include members of the opposite sex. The Supreme Court has confirmed this.

I think what frustrates me most is the government can't just say this is the law do this, other countries have that, but in England everyone is left to read between the lines and is sued if they get it wrong...

The police already told you they they aren't going to help you enforce it. You don't have a legal duty, or at least not a legal duty you can act on.

If anyone complains, how about telling them that the customer has the right to use the facilities, and leave it there. They can't prove the customer is trans and neither can you. I'd also suggest that if your clientele is largely uni students, you're going to lose more customers kicking up a stink/trying to police your bathrooms than you would if you just left it alone. As a bleeding hearted, LGBTQ, liberal loony, I certainly wouldn't visit you if I heard you'd been kicking TW out or calling the police on them.

Of course breaking the law is behaving in an unacceptable manner, JFC.

Well yes. Though that people in power now seem to somehow have been taken by surprise is ridiculous. Anyway, not wanting to derail.

Where is your source for this?

doesn't this leave me liable to the biological woman who complained suing me for not protecting her space? or can she not she as she can't prove the person in there was a trans woman?

I want to do the right thing here and respect everyone it's just annoying.

Then they could be sued by the person whose rights to single sex facilities were not respected and held up.

The law has been clarified. The OP would be very unwise to ignore that.

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