Why can't people respect the rules around toilets!?!?

[coffeeandmycats]

I’m really angry and just need to get this off my chest. Me and my sister run a small shop, just the two of us and a couple of customer toilets, one for biological women, one for men, signs on the door. Never had any trouble. Until today.
A regular female customer comes up looking pretty upset, says there’s a man in the women’s loo. I go in to check. At first it sort of looked okay, hair, maybe a trans woman? But then I heard a deep voice, saw stubble and a broad build, a wig that looked like a last-minute costume. It was clearly a bloke who didn’t pass. Not even close.
I said politely, this is the women’s loo, please leave. He stared at me and said flat out, “I was born female.” Not I identify as a woman, he literally claimed he was biologically female. I asked him to go and he refused.
So I rang 101, didn’t want drama and wasn’t sure what rights we had as shop owners. The police said we can’t challenge how someone describes themselves. If he says he was born female, that’s it. We’re not allowed to question it based on how he looks. And since no laws were broken, they won’t come unless he’s being abusive or refusing to follow reasonable requests after shouting multiple times.
They also confirmed that the new Supreme Court judgment about women-only spaces is civil law, not criminal. That means even though legally women are defined by birth, you still can’t challenge someone in the moment just because they say they’re female.
I looked into it after, and yep, the Supreme Court (in For Women Scotland v Scottish Ministers) ruled that “woman” in the Equality Act 2010 means biologically female. But that applies to protecting women-only spaces under civil law. It doesn’t let us stop someone on the spot from walking into the wrong loo. The police still can’t act if someone says they’re female, even if it’s clearly false.
This bloke walked into the women’s loo, lied about being born female, made women uncomfortable, and we’ve got no legal leg to stand on to stop him. Women customers left feeling unsafe.
So what exactly are we supposed to do? Sit back and let it happen because the law only kicks in later on? Are we just meant to trust someone who’s lying about their sex to decide what sexed spaces they can use?
It feels like women’s rights are just words, no power in real life. Anyone else run into this mess in their business? I'm nearly losing my mind over how absurd this is.

Neither you nor her know what the person’s status was. And misgendering happens a lot. Poet Joelle Taylor explores this in her work C+nto (which is very good as it happens).

To put in sinks and new doors? Nowhere near that.

In most other countries women don't have the right to single sex spaces.

To my knowledge the UK and various US states have been the first jurisdictions to confirm that trans people shouldn't be using single sex spaces for the opposite sex, and only very recently, so the question of how to actually enforce it hasn't yet come up in other places.

Fundamentally you need to respect the law.

Where there is ambiguity there, I feel sympathy. But I don't think there is actual ambiguity. Just the potential for men to break the law, but try intimidate you into not pulling them up on it. This would then open you up to legal action from those who's rights to single sex spaces are not being upheld.

You didn’t answer who he was talking to?

Do you understand that the law isn't actually optional, no matter how much you like to shit rainbows?

people can be asked to confirm their birth sex in some circumstances if it is "necessary and proportionate" for a service provider to "know an individual's birth sex to be able to discharge their legal obligations".
Any request should be made in a "sensitive way which does not cause discrimination or harassment", it said.
The commission adds that if there is "genuine concern about the accuracy of the response to a question about birth sex, then a birth certificate could be requested".
As some trans people who have obtained a Gender Recognition Certificate may also have an amended birth certificate, the draft code says any further enquiries about biological sex at birth should be "made in a proportionate way which is discreet and sensitive" in the "unlikely event" they are needed.
The code says: "Where obtaining information on birth sex is not necessary and proportionate, asking a trans person about their birth sex may risk unjustifiably interfering with their human rights...
"Therefore, care should be taken, particularly by public authorities, that this is only done where necessary and justified.
"Discrimination or harassment could occur if, for example, individuals are asked about their birth sex in a way which may require them to disclose this information in public, or if the language or manner of a request is rude, combative or offensive."

however it doesn't say how this can be done, if they have a birth certificate showing biologically female or a passport etc I guess I have to believe them. Also according to civil court guidelines DNA tests can not be used as they are a breach of human rights seemingly.

to me, i went in to check and they spoke to me, apologies I missed your comment

I'm not a lawyer so I don't know. But I'd bet my left tit she's not going to do anything. The bio woman isn't being discriminated against - she's allowed in the bathroom. She wasn't in danger - the customer didn't behave in an aggressive manner. She can't prove anything - if you say the woman in the bathroom is a woman, and the woman in the bathroom says she's a woman, then how the fuck is anyone going to prove otherwise?

If you really do respect the trans community I'd plead with you to stand beside them and remember they're not the monsters people make them out to be. Just like the woman who had a pee and washed her hands.

I can't stop you from putting up signs, or withholding keys, but I'd bet my other tit you're going to alienate much more of your customer base than if you just left it alone.

How do you know the customer wasn't in danger?

Women and girls have been seriously harmed by trans identifying males in women's toilets.

You have absolutely no idea whether she was in danger or not.

In any case, the OP shouldn't be making a decision about which group of people to alienate. She just needs to respect the law.

it feels like I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.. basically if I challenge someone who looks like a trans man they can sue me if they aren't, and if I don't then the biological women who report them can sue me for not protecting their space.

on the surface this sounds simple, but let's be honest if this happens 1000 times hypothetically, I only need to get it wrong once to have to payout

it's not about alienating people, it's about a) following the law, and b) not getting sued if I get it wrong.

Precisely why you should invest and install self contained cubicles, labelled simply WC.

Well I do - the woman washed her hands and petted some cats. There was no danger.

I understand that this might not be much comfort to you, as it cannot be guaranteed, but I would be surprised if it ever came to providing birth certs.

A polite request to clarify their biological sex is almost certainly as far as it would go.

You can't be the only cafe owner etc in this ridiculous situation, worrying how to comply with the law; there must be lots.
Is there any official body that advises or lobbies on behalf of shop owners or cafe/restaurant/pub owners, who might have issued some general guidance? Or your local Chamber of Trade or someone? Where do you normally get advice about e.g. hygiene, health and safety etc? Even if those people aren't the right body to deal with this particular problem, they might be able to point you in the right direction.

we rent not own so would need permission to do this, plus it would be at a big cost.

And Katie Dolatowski was just using the women's toilets, right up until the moment he sexually assaulted a ten year old.

we get legal advise from our insurers, but their advice is to follow the ehrc and wait and see how it plays out

PLEASE read the Ben Cooper link I posted up thread.

Lots and LOTS and LOTS of what is on the internet is lying.
Ben Cooper KC won the case for FWS

Yes, in real life this is never going to happen. You wouldn't challenge someone unless it is absolutely obvious that they are a man.

Surely a worthwhile investment? Don’t suppose your landlord would have any objections.

apologies I posted this too soon without re-reading it, but essentially their advice is to take it slow, and see how this plays out before making changes, which is all well and good but I don't feel like being dragged through court.

She rents the building.

no but if we spend 15k and the landlord boots us out and puts someone else in we are left with nothing.