Why can't people respect the rules around toilets!?!?

[coffeeandmycats]

I’m really angry and just need to get this off my chest. Me and my sister run a small shop, just the two of us and a couple of customer toilets, one for biological women, one for men, signs on the door. Never had any trouble. Until today.
A regular female customer comes up looking pretty upset, says there’s a man in the women’s loo. I go in to check. At first it sort of looked okay, hair, maybe a trans woman? But then I heard a deep voice, saw stubble and a broad build, a wig that looked like a last-minute costume. It was clearly a bloke who didn’t pass. Not even close.
I said politely, this is the women’s loo, please leave. He stared at me and said flat out, “I was born female.” Not I identify as a woman, he literally claimed he was biologically female. I asked him to go and he refused.
So I rang 101, didn’t want drama and wasn’t sure what rights we had as shop owners. The police said we can’t challenge how someone describes themselves. If he says he was born female, that’s it. We’re not allowed to question it based on how he looks. And since no laws were broken, they won’t come unless he’s being abusive or refusing to follow reasonable requests after shouting multiple times.
They also confirmed that the new Supreme Court judgment about women-only spaces is civil law, not criminal. That means even though legally women are defined by birth, you still can’t challenge someone in the moment just because they say they’re female.
I looked into it after, and yep, the Supreme Court (in For Women Scotland v Scottish Ministers) ruled that “woman” in the Equality Act 2010 means biologically female. But that applies to protecting women-only spaces under civil law. It doesn’t let us stop someone on the spot from walking into the wrong loo. The police still can’t act if someone says they’re female, even if it’s clearly false.
This bloke walked into the women’s loo, lied about being born female, made women uncomfortable, and we’ve got no legal leg to stand on to stop him. Women customers left feeling unsafe.
So what exactly are we supposed to do? Sit back and let it happen because the law only kicks in later on? Are we just meant to trust someone who’s lying about their sex to decide what sexed spaces they can use?
It feels like women’s rights are just words, no power in real life. Anyone else run into this mess in their business? I'm nearly losing my mind over how absurd this is.

We already have laws to keep men and women separate where that is warranted

@MrsSkylerWhite Then why do we have single sex toilets?

Why do we have single sex sports?

Please answer this question.

Also do you lock your door when you leave your house or leave it open?

Neither do I. Obviously, trans women aren’t women. I’m not entirely sure they’re men, either. Hopefully time will tell.

Yes it specifies the legal exemptions to sex discrimination.

Please answer my question. Is it fair to judge an entire group for the actions of a few individuals?

As a service provider the OP has a duty to ensure that the women using the Ladies are not harassed by the presence of a man there. The OP must exclude male transexuals from the Ladies.

It’s really nice to see some people on mumsnet finally pushing back.

@MrsSkylerWhite

1. Single-sex services matter to women

The most important reason given for wanting single-sex services was privacy and dignity (98% of respondents). Nine out of ten respondents to our survey were women, but people of both sexes said they prefer single-sex privacy in everyday situations such as changing, washing and using the toilet, and in hospital wards. Almost half the women who responded had experienced sexual assault in their lifetime, and this made privacy and security in everyday single-sex services particularly important for them.

1. Losing single-sex services harms inclusion

Many women said they self-exclude from services which are no longer provided as single-sex or separate-sex. 61% of respondents said they had already experienced male and female facilities being replaced by “gender-neutral” facilities. Many respondents clarified that sex means biological sex, not gender identity. 45% had experienced “trans-inclusive” rules that allow males to use women’s services.

1. Guidance is needed to give everyone confidence

When we asked where people were most concerned about losing single- sex services, the top two answers were hospital wards and women’s services, followed by public toilets and schools, colleges and universities. 95% of respondents agreed that the Equality and Human Rights Commission should provide guidance for service providers to help them follow the law.

Then I wouldn't choose to use them anyway. I'm not comfortable changing in front of anybody no matter what gender.

They are men. In a hundred years they’ll be digging up the bones of adult human males.

Someone’s presence doesn’t rise to the threshold of harrassment. They have to be harrassing them. If so that’s covered in criminal law and the police can get involved.

@Tandora

I have NEVER heard good men complain they are excluded from women's single sex spaces and yet we keep all men out to keep the bad men out. Being trans doesn't not give you special treatment. You are still a man.

If this was a female transexual it is still legitimate for the OP to kick them out of the Ladies because their male appearance could cause distress to the women using the facilities.

Harassment on the grounds of a protected characteristic is covered under the EA, as well as criminal law.

Do you really not understand the concept of basic safeguarding principles?

I also run a food business with toilets available to the public. We also had an incident recently, a lady came to one of my team and said there was a man acting strangely in the women's toilets. When we went to investigate there was a man having a shave and whores wash.

As they were leaving he stole something from another customer and also assaulted one of my female team members (who knew nothing of what was going on and just arriving at work and walking through the door as they were leaving). We called the police as obviously the assault was criminal, but they were useless too.

I fully expect there to be an increase in these kinds of incidents in the future, probably not to the extent ours was hopefully. It is definitely not something I am looking forward to having to deal with.

What about women who attack women in toilets? It does happen.

Thanks, that is honest and clear.

You support males using women's spaces despite acknowledging this will create a risk for women, of predatory men pretending to be 'trans' to access women in spaces where they are vulnerable.

Why does women's safety take second place to men's feelings?

Why does EVERY teacher and social worker have to have a DBS even though very few are child abusers ?

Why does EVERY airline passenger have to go through security scanners even though almost none are terrorists ?

Women don't rape. 99% of sex assaults are committed by males.

Paraphilias (voyeurism, frottage, exhibitionism) are vastly more prevalent in males.

Males are by far stronger than females, because of muscle mass due to testosterone, plus usually larger and heavier.

Yes, but if it were discrimination, it would be on the grounds of gender reassignment - one of the 9 protected characteristics. And to prove discrimination, the claimant would have to show that he - as a man with the PC of gender reassignment - was treated differently than a man w/o the PC of gender reassignment. Note the comparator would be a man, not a a woman.

That's the impact of the SC clarification of the law that has always existed.

You've had an encounter with an entitled man who thinks that the world should bend to his fetish or mental disorder. Hope you're OK, @coffeeandmycats

Yes it does. The perpetrator would hopefully be caught and punished. And? Still not sure why that is a reason to allow males into women’s spaces.

This ⬆️ x 💯

Then why do we have single sex spaces?
Please answer this

What do you think being trans is? Do you think it matters?