Why can't people respect the rules around toilets!?!?

[coffeeandmycats]

I’m really angry and just need to get this off my chest. Me and my sister run a small shop, just the two of us and a couple of customer toilets, one for biological women, one for men, signs on the door. Never had any trouble. Until today.
A regular female customer comes up looking pretty upset, says there’s a man in the women’s loo. I go in to check. At first it sort of looked okay, hair, maybe a trans woman? But then I heard a deep voice, saw stubble and a broad build, a wig that looked like a last-minute costume. It was clearly a bloke who didn’t pass. Not even close.
I said politely, this is the women’s loo, please leave. He stared at me and said flat out, “I was born female.” Not I identify as a woman, he literally claimed he was biologically female. I asked him to go and he refused.
So I rang 101, didn’t want drama and wasn’t sure what rights we had as shop owners. The police said we can’t challenge how someone describes themselves. If he says he was born female, that’s it. We’re not allowed to question it based on how he looks. And since no laws were broken, they won’t come unless he’s being abusive or refusing to follow reasonable requests after shouting multiple times.
They also confirmed that the new Supreme Court judgment about women-only spaces is civil law, not criminal. That means even though legally women are defined by birth, you still can’t challenge someone in the moment just because they say they’re female.
I looked into it after, and yep, the Supreme Court (in For Women Scotland v Scottish Ministers) ruled that “woman” in the Equality Act 2010 means biologically female. But that applies to protecting women-only spaces under civil law. It doesn’t let us stop someone on the spot from walking into the wrong loo. The police still can’t act if someone says they’re female, even if it’s clearly false.
This bloke walked into the women’s loo, lied about being born female, made women uncomfortable, and we’ve got no legal leg to stand on to stop him. Women customers left feeling unsafe.
So what exactly are we supposed to do? Sit back and let it happen because the law only kicks in later on? Are we just meant to trust someone who’s lying about their sex to decide what sexed spaces they can use?
It feels like women’s rights are just words, no power in real life. Anyone else run into this mess in their business? I'm nearly losing my mind over how absurd this is.

I don't know any 🤷🏼 I can only speak for myself. I'm part of the burlesque scene and as such have lots of trans/gender queer friends. There's never been an issue, in 20 years.

There has to be a certain level of trust for society to function. I trust female nursery workers with my DD despite there being numerous reports of them abusing children. I trust the doctors and nurses with my mum's intimate care. I trust male taxi drivers despite there being news reports about them abusing people.

Walking around afraid of everyone because there's a few bad eggs just doesn't work, IME.

They don’t have the right to use women only spaces. Are you saying you trust them to refrain from using these spaces?

Men do not respect women, never have. Too many enjoy violence and they can’t stand the idea of equality. Things are about to get worse unfortunately.

I’d go with locking the toilets and providing a key. That’s done quite regularly.

I would put up a sign to collect the toilet key from the staff and hand the male or female key to the customer of the correct sex for the loo.

You don't like using communal changing rooms so you dont care that women who don't mind them, as long as they are single sex, may well self exclude if men are allowed.

I’m honestly gobsmacked you expected the police to sort this out for you. You wouldn’t call the police if ie a non disabled person used the disabled loos. It’s obviously private property and they don’t enforce many criminal laws on private property, let alone that the police obviously never enforce civil laws

Female only spaces provided to the public depend on the Equality Act single sex exceptions or they are unlawful. It’s not some minor bylaw.

Yes

I'm the wrong person to ask because I don't think they should have to. Trans people have been using facilities they deem appropriate since...forever. There's never been an law in this country dictating which spaces they should use, and this new guidance is totally unenforcable.

This xx

Agree.

That’s their choice.

There are potentially lots of issues if women and girls are sharing showers with men.

If you have male and female spaces, do you also have a disabled toilet that is unisex? If not i would consider that would be an obvious solution

I'm unclear why you used the word "only" above.

Given that the equality act applies to almost any provision of single sex services, in practice the EA definition of sex is almost always going to be the one that is relevant.

The use of "only" and "one particular act of parliament" suggests you think there are many single sex scenarios where the EA act will not apply. For clarity, and to back up your implication that the EA is not especially significant, can you please give some examples?

It isn't new. The EA has been in force since 2010 and this judgment clarified the meaning of man and woman since 2010.

Men cannot use facilities labelled for women's use. Ladies cannot use facilities labelled for men's use. Passing transmen can be prohibited from using women's facilities.

Men need to use men's loos etc. That's just how it is.

All you people saying it's unenforceable, what do you think should happen if a man, who is obviously a man and says he's a man, uses the women's toilets? Does he have a right to use the women's toilets? Do you think the customers, staff or police have the right to throw him out? And if so, what is the difference between him and a man who is obviously a man but is pretending he's a woman?

Nursery workers have DBS checks and can be banned from working with children. Taxis, if they're legal, are licensed for safety reasons. We don't have sacred castes in safeguarding, covered up as "trust". That is not a good thing. It is a very very bad thing.

Men are not permitted in women's spaces. Within your burlesque space you permit it, fair enough, but they aren't strangers to you and the space is explicitly mixed sex. You cannot take your private burlesque space and demand that every other woman now accept strange men in all public female spaces because you consent and so they don't need to... and don't dress it up as "trust".

OP, just to say that -ever since I shaved my head- I regularly get mistaken for a bloke. Hardly a week goes by that someone doesn’t call me “sir”. Doesn’t help that I seldom wear makeup anymore or even earrings… and live in jeans. My younger self would have been mortified if people thought I was male. Menopausal me can’t be arsed spending half a day or more getting my hair done; so much simpler to shave it all off. In fact, I found going bald so liberating that I no longer feel the need for makeup or jewellery… there’s really nowhere to hide when you have no hair on your head anyway. Truth be told, (rightly or wrongly), I feel safer on the streets with people thinking I’m a man anyway. That being said, I’ve also never had more compliments from complete strangers than I have with this hairstyle. Black Panther definitely helped, lol. The point is, as you say, you can’t always be sure of making the correct call.

Doesn't matter what you agree with. What matters is the law. If it's labelled as being for women, men (including transwomen) are prohibited from entering.

OP, just to say that -ever since I shaved my head- I regularly get mistaken for a bloke. Hardly a week goes by that someone doesn’t call me “sir”. Doesn’t help that I seldom wear makeup anymore or even earrings… and live in jeans. My younger self would have been mortified if people thought I was male. Menopausal me can’t be arsed spending half a day or more getting my hair done; so much simpler to shave it all off. In fact, I found going bald so liberating that I no longer feel the need for makeup or jewellery… there’s really nowhere to hide when you have no hair on your head anyway. Truth be told, (rightly or wrongly), I feel safer on the streets with people thinking I’m a man anyway. That being said, I’ve also never had more compliments from complete strangers than I have with this hairstyle. Black Panther definitely helped, lol. The point is, as you say, you can’t always be sure of making the correct call.

I don’t want to share certain spaces with men. This includes the nice ones as well as the bad ones. It also includes the trans ones. You don’t speak for me.

So you don’t trust them not to use women only spaces. I rest my case. Women’s spaces are for women, not men, however lovely you personally think those men are.

It’s not just “guidance” it’s the law around single sex spaces. It’s never been a criminal offence for any man to use women’s spaces, trans or otherwise, and it shouldn’t need to be, because men, including “trans women” should be able to be trusted to have some respect and decency and stay out of spaces where they aren’t wanted by the majority of women and girls.

I said “only” because it “only” applies to interpreting the words as used in the EA.

Im not clear what you are struggling with.

The EA definition of sex only applies to interpreting the word sex as it is used in the equality act, for the purposes of setting out protections for people against discrimination on the basis of “sex”. Thats it. That is exactly what I said, and what I meant to imply. Because it’s legally correct.

I take it you don’t lock your door or car (if you have one)?