if I'm totally fed up of people assuming SAHMs are rich and idle?

[bohemianbint]

I am one, because I CAN'T AFFORD TO PUT TWO CHILDREN INTO CHILDCARE.

I did initially go back to work, but got shafted by my boss and am about to take him to court. We are not minted and I don't spend my time watching tv, eating bicuits and buying handbags. More's the pity. I will go back to work my my children are older, for definite, but for now, I'm stuck, whether I like it or not.

I find it hard to believe I'm the only person who can't actually afford to work?

the only man i'd service is the sainsburys one when he delivers the food and,more importantly,wine to my door on a Wed eve

i find the comments on this thread completely bizarre. Firstly, in my opinon YANBU if that is really the experience you have had, - I don't believe that anyone who has spent time with young children on a regular basis can honestly say they think SAHMs are idle. But i can't honestly agree that whatever their other opinions, that people think all SAHMs are rich and idle - otherwise we live in a far wealthier country than i had been led to believe...

Secondly - why all the judgement?
I am lucky enough to be in a senior mgt role in a job i enjoy, and have some flexibility in my working arrangements - i would love to work 3 days a week but a)we wouldn't be able to afford it and b) not sure my employers would go that far (there is still the view that snr mgt needs to be a full time role). Much as i love my children, and spending time with them, I get a lot from my working interactions and wouldn't want to give that up.

Surely it shouldn't be a fight between working and home mums - surely it should be a fight to enable people (men and women) who do work (either cos they want to or they have to) to have some real flexibility in working arrangements (not just a nod to it in terms of legislation that employers will use as they want to) - and this should apply irrespective of seniority of role, and for SAHM/Ds to do have a full time childcare role without being anyone judged for it? or am i just being incredibly naiive and idealistic?

Hi again! Done enough work for today!
I think the old saying 'No one ever says at the end of their life that they wished they'd spent more time at work, but lots say they wish they'd spent more time with their kids' is another load of claptrap. I don't think people talk in those terms in reality. But people do have regrets if they feel that they havent achieved certain goals in their life. Will I ever wish I'd spent more hours sitting in my office? No! But I would certainly regret it if I hadnt achieved some of my finest moments in my career..... certain things I've published, the cut and thrust of a particular legal situation i was involved in... they have contributed to the person I am. I think we have a duty to ourselves, not only to our children to live dynamic and interesting lives. Our children do not belong to us; they are within our care for a period of time, and hopefully when they are adults they will still find us interesting and fun and choose to spend time with us.
Some other thoughts after scanning this thread: Whoever it was said we really can't know whether we're doing the best for our children is spot on. A mother may feel a gut instinct that it is 'best' to stay home, or 'best' to work, but the truth is, we don't know, because we can't rewind and do the whole thing again a different way. That's why I feel it's important to be honest: if you can afford to stay home and want to stay home then do it! But don't say it's best for your child because how on earth do you know?? I've always had a sneaking suspicion that one of the reasons I wasnt very confident as a child (didn't really 'come into my own' until university) was because my mother was a very traditional SAHM, never even leaving me with babysitters etc and always being around. But who knows? A huge amount of what we are is genes, personality.... I might have been an unconfident child whatever she had done.
Quattro - although it's a generalisation, i think there is some truth in what you say that if people don't have interesting jobs, or are struggling in their career, then they are more likely to give up. Of course we will all know exceptions - the highflying surgeon or lawyer who gave it all up and became a SAHM, but generally it seems logical that if you enjoy and are successful at your job, you will be more motivated to stay in it. Again, the honesty question. If you have secretly always wanted a 'way out' of your job, then say so. I know several friends who have done that. They had various issues at work, or were in unstimulating jobs so were more ready to give up and stay at home.
Finally - whoever mentioned about their dd being proud of what they do (Twinset I think) - I absolutely identify with that. All my dcs are hugely proud of the fact that their mum and dad both have professions and success outside the home; they have also been involved in a hands on way, coming into work now and again, meeting colleagues etc which I think is a hugely positive experience in enabling them to see what mums and dads do.
This is a fascinating thread.

Hi again! Done enough work for today!
I think the old saying 'No one ever says at the end of their life that they wished they'd spent more time at work, but lots say they wish they'd spent more time with their kids' is another load of claptrap. I don't think people talk in those terms in reality. But people do have regrets if they feel that they havent achieved certain goals in their life. Will I ever wish I'd spent more hours sitting in my office? No! But I would certainly regret it if I hadnt achieved some of my finest moments in my career..... certain things I've published, the cut and thrust of a particular legal situation i was involved in... they have contributed to the person I am. I think we have a duty to ourselves, not only to our children to live dynamic and interesting lives. Our children do not belong to us; they are within our care for a period of time, and hopefully when they are adults they will still find us interesting and fun and choose to spend time with us.
Some other thoughts after scanning this thread: Whoever it was said we really can't know whether we're doing the best for our children is spot on. A mother may feel a gut instinct that it is 'best' to stay home, or 'best' to work, but the truth is, we don't know, because we can't rewind and do the whole thing again a different way. That's why I feel it's important to be honest: if you can afford to stay home and want to stay home then do it! But don't say it's best for your child because how on earth do you know?? I've always had a sneaking suspicion that one of the reasons I wasnt very confident as a child (didn't really 'come into my own' until university) was because my mother was a very traditional SAHM, never even leaving me with babysitters etc and always being around. But who knows? A huge amount of what we are is genes, personality.... I might have been an unconfident child whatever she had done.
Quattro - although it's a generalisation, i think there is some truth in what you say that if people don't have interesting jobs, or are struggling in their career, then they are more likely to give up. Of course we will all know exceptions - the highflying surgeon or lawyer who gave it all up and became a SAHM, but generally it seems logical that if you enjoy and are successful at your job, you will be more motivated to stay in it. Again, the honesty question. If you have secretly always wanted a 'way out' of your job, then say so. I know several friends who have done that. They had various issues at work, or were in unstimulating jobs so were more ready to give up and stay at home.
Finally - whoever mentioned about their dd being proud of what they do (Twinset I think) - I absolutely identify with that. All my dcs are hugely proud of the fact that their mum and dad both have professions and success outside the home; they have also been involved in a hands on way, coming into work now and again, meeting colleagues etc which I think is a hugely positive experience in enabling them to see what mums and dads do.
This is a fascinating thread.

Not claptrap, I spent many an afternoon talking to elderly people where my Grandmother spent her last few years. Whether they were magistrates, authors, senior management they all said family came first and how they wish they knew how much they would regret time missed later. Mostly men said how one minute their children were just arriving and war took them away, then when they returned they worked, the next minute their children were leaving home.
I have had an excting career and one that my children love hearing about and one I will return to when I am able, seems like I will have the best of both, missing out on nothing.
'children do not belong to us; they are within our care for a period of time, and hopefully when they are adults they will still find us interesting and fun and choose to spend time with us.' and then just think if they don't you have been an incubator and a lawyer. If they're only with us for a short time I want to make sure that time is spent with me.

posie: "I have never met anyone in their later years who wished they worked more, but many, if not all, wished they spent more time with their children....."

That is true only if you feel that, for whatever reason, you never got the balance of work and home life right to begin with. That is where self-awareness comes. But I do acknowledge it is particularly hard where people don't have the option to do anything to redress an imbalance.

I don't see my later years in terms of regrets. Rather (touch wood if all goes well), dh and I would probably look back and marvel at being allowed the privilege of having an interesting career as well as nice grown up children with financial flexibility to help them out if necessary, enjoying our comfy retirement and pension.

posie, would your dh feel any regrets in his later years not having spent enough time with your dcs?

He already does and he works relatively short days and works near to our home, he also earns enough to give us a nice house, private education and three holidays a year. We both have a private pension.
You know I really didn't want to get into the SAHM/WOHM debate as I think whatever anyone does is good enough if all the family is happy, just pisses me off when people assume SAHMs had shit careers, are stupid, lazy, directionless or inferior. In all honesty I don't feel the need to attack WOHMs as I don't want to be one. I am in the throws of writing my first collection of short stories and have long term goals with my writing as well as looking at launching a software product (I am the ideas person not the architect).

I'm not understanding you Quattro...[scratches head]

Your contention was that you felt most SAHMs had not given up successful careers. I countered that I had indeed given up a successful career. How does the cap fit? You are being rather obtuse

handlemecarefully - Quattro is super neurotic about this subject (as she cannot possibly ever give up work but secretly would adore to) . Don't attack her - humour her...

Handlemecarefully, sometimes people have to hold on to their own position very tightly because they know even a small crack would break it beyond repair. There is no room for understanding if you can't admit you have empathy for another person's position, I always think these people are secretly afraid of being objective just in case they realise they are wrong!!!

Well I have yet to meet a working parent whose family doesnt come first posie. Mine does. What you fail to understand is that those of us who are parents and work (which is the majority) feel that we have the best of both worlds. There is no 'magic' defining moment when your children 'no longer' need you and you waltz merrily back into your career. Children and young people need their parents in different ways as they move through different phases, but these needs are not just met through being the only one who can wipe their arse, or take them shopping, or whatever. An emotional need for children is to have two parents who are happy, balanced individuals. I totally agree with blueshoes that any elderly person who regrets not spending more time with their family has clearly not got the balance right! And sadly, for a certain generation of men that was a lot to do with the war, so it wasnt their fault they didnt get the balance right!
posie - that's wonderful for you that your dh works short days and pays for your nice house, private education and 3 holidays a year and for you to stay home! You clearly have the life you want so why be so defensive?? It does not therefore follow that your children will be happy, confident individuals. I'm not saying they won't be - I'm simply saying that you having your life the way you want is no guarantee IN ITSELF of having a well adjusted family life and wonderful kids because there are just so many other variables as has been pointed out countless times.

oh welcome back anna - it's nice to see the quality of debate move up a gear

findtheriver, there aren't that many women that I know in good careers that truly think they have the best of both, most find they don't really have enough time to do either well. For the rest working is a means to an end, no self congratulating for getting a paper published, getting high up the career ladder, managing to keep the large house.
I am not being defensive I am defending a position because you seem to think it' okay to attack it and cannot just accept that some people have a perfect right to do as they wish and are not impaired in doing so.
SAH is not about wiping a child's arse or taking them shopping, perhaps that's what you do with your children however I like to do a range of things from skills they will take through life to learning, nobody cuddles quite like Mummy.
I have no problem with WOHMs just the ones that can't accept that a SAHM is as valid.

Agree posie. Whenever WOHMs talk about what they do with their children at home and why they find those tasks so dull - I agree, what they choose to do sounds deadly dull . Three hours chopping veg, you said yesterday findtheriver? My family would fire me if I expected that of them

Bloody hell riven, tickle me with a feather and call me a Christian!!!

Agree with findtheriver. I can relate to everything you've said.

I agree with Quattro. I do think that if you had a career that was enjoyable and hard earned before children you are less likely to give up - you are probably a success story for feminism - giving woman the power to have financial independence and opportunities in the job market. HOWEVER, there are also limits to this - if the career will now be so incessant that caring for children alongside it is difficult and stressful - i.e. long unpredictable hours, perhaps male dominated and unsympathetic etc, then you are likely to give up too. May be an explanation for some successful women who gave up work ? But enjoyment is the crucial factor for me, and hopefully the money follows this though !

I have to say, I do think that people should keep their fingers in some pie somewhere while being a SAHM so they can get a job if required. Things that go through my mind are - what happens if DH f@cks off (maybe paranoid but also statistically possible)? What if he dies? What if he loses his job? What if he becomes ill? I really don't want to feel vulnerable and powerless and unable to provide for my family. I do think people are free to chose this - and it is difficult to know all SAHM's circumstances and if they are comfortable on the things that I worry about then fair play and good on them !

I personally do want something I enjoy (hence I am retraining to something I enjoy rather than a previously well paid but deeply stressful and unenjoyable job)

I want us all to come home from work and school and have something to share about our day, rather than me living my life through them and placing undue pressure on them to do well etc.

I also am a bit on the feminist side and don't want my boys growing up thinking females do all the chores.

Childcare is supposed to be done by women for love not money: this is why childcare-as-a-job is low status and badly paid (just like cleaning jobs and most catering jobs: women are supposed to do these for the men in their family in return for their keep).
But I think it's pretty much vital for every adult to do something that provides him/her with some kind of income, even more so if that adult lives with an income-earning adult. Because you need your own money to stop you feeling like a child or a possession, and you need to do something that isn't about cleaning up or wiping arses or serving food. Because it's way way way to easy for households to end up revolving around the whims of the income-earner, with the other adult in the house being expected to live through and for the income earner (oh, I'm there for my DH to bounce ideas off) and the children.
SO if you can;t afford 9-5 childcare, find something you can do with your DC (Usborne books or Kleeneze or one of the kiddy-music franchises) or something you can do when they are in bed or when your partner is not working and can do his/her share of childcare (bar work, minicabbing,shelf-stacking), and keep your eyes open for jobs that pay the most per hour and use your brains the most. And DON'T EVER fall for the bullshit that because the WOHM partner has been out of the home working for part of the week, that excuses him (or her) from ever doing any childcare or housework.

What is a WOHM?

I am going back to work next month, doing agency work. However, it is one day at the weekend, simply because if i worked during the week and payed for childcare then i would be working to line someone else's pocket. Which really irks me. The sad thing is that i work in what is termed a professional job, but alas not well paid

v interesting thread...

to the op
i used to be in the same position. i couldnt afford towork either. my take home pay was £1025 and the childcare i was content with was about two thousand a month.
it would have cost me a grand a month, before taking into aaccount things like the cost of travelling to work etc.
most people didnt believe me.