TW - SA. To think that infidelity is rape

[Driftingawaynow]

Just interested in opinions here. I’ve been in relationships where my partner has been unfaithful and continued to sleep with me
i think part of the trauma of finding out is knowing that you’ve had sex with someone when if you’d have known you would not have done it.
So youve been tricked into having sex. That’s not consent, so is it rape?
I’ve also been raped in the more traditional sense whatever that means
if it is rape, what are the implications if we become aware that someone else is the victim of infidelity and they don’t know..

It’s an awful betrayal and is wrong on every level, but to say it is the same as rape could not be more wrong.

Shall I write here what was done to me and you can tell me how it is the same?

Cheating is a horrendous violation of trust. It puts your partner at physical risk (STIs). I hate that there are so many people who downplay it. But it's not rape.

If a woman posted on here that she'd cheated on her partner and posters responded that she was a rapist, all hell would break loose!

This.

Get a grip OP ffs.

Agree with this

Rape in marriage is different, the person would still not consent to the sex at all and was raped. This isn’t rape, the sex is consensual, the deception is not. Comparing it to rape in a marriage is wrong.

Deceptive and a shit thing to do (and gross), but not rape. I’ve been SA’d and almost raped (and threatened to be raped). The same guy that tried to rape me also cheated on me but the experience of almost being raped is a lot more traumatising than being cheated on and then sleeping with him without knowing he’d been with other women. He was also abusive, so him cheating was so far down on the list of things that caused me trauma.

Rape should only cover no consent, or consent to safe sex that is then taken away without consent (stealthing). Otherwise you open up a can of worms of “he told me he was 30 but he was actually 28 and I won’t sleep with anyone under 30” or “he was actually married and told me he was single” being classed as rape.

@Driftingawaynow

So you asked why it's not rape as you have not consented to sex unless in the terms of a monogamous relationship. So why it is not rape and what it is:

• Fraud in the Inducement vs. Fraud in the Factum:

* Fraud in the inducement is when someone is tricked or lied to about something that motivates them to consent to an act, but they still consent to the act itself. This is what's happening in your scenario. The lie about exclusivity induces the partner to continue the relationship and have sex, but they are still consenting to the sex act with that partner.

• Fraud in the factum is when someone is tricked about the nature of the act itself, or the identity of the person they are having sex with. For example, if someone believes they are undergoing a medical procedure but it's actually a sexual act, or if they are tricked into believing their partner is someone else. This can negate consent and lead to a charge of sexual assault/rape.

I'm not comfortable with the idea of the government getting involved in people's personal lives to this extent. I can see this leading to men taking their girlfriends to court after discovering she lied about being a virgin, for example. The only scenarios where I'd be okay with this sort of law are A) lying about STI status and B) lying about paternity.

Infidelity is infidelity, it's immoral, but if both commited sides consent, then it's not rape.

I can honestly say the trauma of infidelity was worse by an order of magnitude

I personally find that hurtful to survivors and victims of sexual abuse and rape.

My brother done it to me. And I have had to hear about him throughout my life it doesn't go away

I would even question whether it’s “sex by deception” unless the cheating partner knows for a fact you would never consent to have sex with them had you know about the deception. Plenty of people learn about cheating spouses and continue to have sex with them.

That said it is shitty and something being willfully concealed to, at a minimum hold onto a relationship.

I doubt there would ever be appetite to extended the law to this kind of thing though.

I think you are right, but I also agree that it is not the same as a violent physical attack and should be distinguished from such by law.

I'd propose that 'rape' be broken down into perhaps three categories:

1. unwanted penetration obtained through physical force
2. unwanted penetration obtained through coercion and
3. unwanted penetration obtained through deception

These could have different treatments under law to reflect the differing nature of the additional crimes bundled with each type (physical assault, coercive control, fraud).

Edit: And in a case where a couple have taken public marriage vows including a 'vow' of monogamy then this should be admissible as evidence of lack of consent to polygamy if there is no further evidence of a change to that agreement.

And of course then women who lie about being on the pill could be taken to court.

I think there is and should be limits to what the government can do in this respect.

It's kind of the same as someone telling you theyre a billionaire so you sleep with them, then it turns out they were lying.

Or someone lying about their age - and you wouldn't have slept with them if you knew their true age - then finding out. I don't think having a situation where "I wouldn't have slept with them if I'd known X" counts as rape because there's just so many scenarios it applies to

It is deceitful but not rape. Everyone knows when they have sex with someone that there is never a guarantee that they will know everything about who they have slept with, when and how often. By your logic, any lie that someone tells in a relationship could turn sex into rape.

I really don’t think cheating should be punishable by law, and so no I don’t think it’s rape.

not to say it isn’t traumatic but I don’t think it should be a crime.

I get you, OP.

I have described things as "rapey behaviour" or "rape adjacent" before when they're in this kind of grey area.

I've also experienced actual rape and actual sexual assault. I've not knowingly experienced infidelity but I can imagine the betrayal feels horrendous. Vulnerability is such a huge part of sex. When there's no informed consent there's a power imbalance. I'd hate that as mutuality is an incredibly important aspect of sex to me.

To accept anything other than fully informed consent and mutual enjoyment feels like the regressive stereotype of sex being done to the woman. Objectifying and disempowering.

Interesting idea!

Although the line between 1 and 2 is probably hazy. Fear of physical force will be behind most of the coercion.

Ive always considered it as a form of obtaining sex by deceit. Some cheated on partners would continue a sexual relationship with an unfaithful partner, others would absolutely not and that’s where the grey area of consent comes in. For those who consent to a sexual relationship based on it being solely exclusive (probably most people). The consent would be rescinded if they had knowledge of infidelity.
Cheating causes so much damage to the well-being of others. For so many reasons.

This post has made me think.
My instinct is that it is deception and not rape. It is horrible and causes untold damage but it's not rape.
The reason I feel like that is because at the moment of consent the partner is with you and not actively cheating on you with someone else. They may have got you to that point via deceiving you but in the moment there is no cheating going on.
The same way previous consent does not mean consent at that time, previous cheating does not mean that they are cheating in the moment.
If you claim that past behaviour invalidates consent where do you draw the line? If you would never have a relationship with someone who uses drugs and then found out that the person you were with had previously used weed, where would you stand?

You're confusing people disagreeing with you with people "shaming you". You asked for people's opinions, and you asked them specifically if you are being unreasonable. As such, a perfectly reasonable answer is "yes". If you don't like the answer that's too bad - you asked, they answered. Arguing with them isn't going to change their minds, in fact it's more likely to entrench their opinion and make you seem unreasonable.

Seems like you just want to TELL people that you think it's r**e, and that you are expecting them to agree with you. That's not a debate, that's just a lecture. If you ask people for their opinion on an AIBU thread then you can't get snitty when people tell you that yes you are indeed being unreasonable.

While we are redrafting legislation it might also be a good moment to consider the definition of rape as penetration (as in, the victim is the one penetrated) too, as something like "participation in a penetrative sex act" might be more inclusive of men also being forced/coerced/deceived.

Men can be raped in law. It just has to be penile penetration, which is why women can't be rapists. But men can absolutely be victims.

Assault by penetration covers other acts and women can be guilty of that.

It would be a significant change in terms of the interaction between personal lives and the law. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered.

I agree it would have to be very well thought through, and only apply in carefully delineated circumstances. But in terms of your example re the woman lying about her virginity, I do think that's unacceptable. If her boyfriend believes she is a virgin, he loses the opportunity to ask her to go for sexual health checks before having sex with her, and she is therefore putting his health in danger. I appreciate that some women in some situations may feel compelled to lie about this to protect themselves, but we are talking about the point early in the relationship before they have sex for the first time. That's an ideal time to get out of an abusive relationship, rather than to dig in deeper by lying to them and having sex with them. However, it would be easy to add a caveat of "self-defence" if someone feels in danger in any particular moment and feels they need to lie to get themselves out of that situation.

I‘n with you, OP.

The law states it’s rape if, amongst some other limbs, “the [rapist] does not reasonably believe the [victim] consents”.

I don’t know what kind of dumbass man you’ve got to be to actually think any woman would be ok with having sex with you whilst you’ve been shagging someone else, so that’s that test satisfied for me.