To think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike?

[Locutus2000]

Last year they got more than anyone else in the NHS along with an improved deal. Nurses and other AHPs received lower rises.

BMA have just announced another 'resident' doctor strike continuing to chase pay restoration to 2008 levels.

Having just had the major win with changes to IMG prioritisation and the clamp-down on PAs it feels a bit tone-deaf and I can't see Streeting going for it.

@ThePure What's your opinion on what's driving this comment? Given you're mentioned, how would you respond to that?

@ThePure no. Things changed in last few years due to the number of IMGs applying. And because of the points based system used to recruit. So used to be ok for UK doctors to get a job after F2, maybe not training but a stand alone job or locum, but many of these have disappeared. So this year many F2s have nothing, for the first time ever.

And where are getting this over 50% of F2s not applied for training in 2025 ?

Watch this and understand why this is happening. Facts. How an F1 today earns £98 more than F1 in 2005 - in actual money.

https://x.com/explosiveenema2/status/1946894555439038547?s=46

Does this help?

"Subanalysis of the subgroup intending to leave medicine (n=303, 2.89%) revealed a significant difference in the proportion of surveyed students taking this decision by various demographic characteristics...Specifically, males were significantly more likely to plan to leave medicine than females (OR 2.61, CI 2.08, 3.30, p<0.00001), and state- educated students had a higher likelihood of planning to leave medicine compared with privately educated students (OR 1.28, CI 1.01, 1.62, p=0.04).

See Ferreira T, Collins AM, Feng O, et al. Career intentions of medical students in the UK: a national, cross- sectional study (AIMS study). BMJ Open 2023;13:e075598. doi:10.1136/ bmjopen-2023-075598)

The proportion of F2 doctors who did not apply to core or specialty training in the same year they finished F2 training has increased year on year. By the last count it had risen to 56%, as demonstrated upthread.

I don't wish to be rude, but you seem to be incapable of taking in information.

Where are these figures from ? Show me the data and I’ll believe you. Otherwise you’re just some random on the internet making up numbers.

Show me the actual numbers of F2s who applied this year.

Help with what ? No mention of strikes ? And is it peer reviewed ?

The over 50% not applying after F2 is from the GMC report linked upthread and has been increasing year on year to the point that the GMC comment ‘not applying for training posts after FY2 has become the norm’

The report was based on analysis of the 2023 data but the survey of Drs intentions this year still showed that only a minority intended to apply for specialty training posts.

You won’t get a job if you don’t apply. If IMGs do apply in much greater numbers, as your own data suggested, then it stands to reason that more of them will get the jobs.

I decided not to dignify that comment with a reply. I am in favour of widening access to medical school.

But 2025 is not 2024, that’s part of the point. Things massively changed as locums dried up and F3 type jobs disappeared. So more F2s applied for training as other options were not there.
The figures will be out in October and there is a survey going on at moment to find out the real picture of unemployment.

You know who’s been hit hardest ? The IMGs already here as they can’t get visas without jobs. We have not treated them well.

This data of 56% was from 2021 when the opportunities to do a locum year or two were v attractive. Many took stand alone jobs to breathe and try out new things, again opportunities that are less available this year. Let’s see what this years figures show in reality, but I know many young doctors without job. Some of their parents are on here. Including ST3 level.

Well I guess we’ll see but this has been an increasing trend over many years and I personally cannot see why 2025 would be so different to 2024 when the immigration rules changed in 2018.

It’s a good thing if locums dried up. It had got to be a huge racket. I am sick of the NHS paying inflated rates to agencies and Drs not wanting to commit to permanent jobs because they could rake in money doing locums and private work (this was very definitely the case at consultant level) It was a vicious cycle and a monumental waste of public money and I am glad that it seems to be receding now.

If 2025 is different then perhaps a correction was needed and it will be temporary. People should not be encouraged to be hanging around in locum and ‘FY3’ jobs

2025 is v different. Jobs have just disappeared. Whereas before consultants could get an SHO job for a keen F2 they are now being told there is no money. I don’t disagree about locums, seemed a v expensive scam, so maybe that’s a good thing.

But IMG numbers have gone through the roof so less UK staff can get a job, and I don’t think unemployed UK trained doctors is a good thing.

The numbers for 2025 are thought to be almost double 2021.

Thank you for these helpful data

Even I, in a completely unrelated field, know that BMJ Open is a high quality peer reviewed journal. The Open is for open access.

Have a read of this
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modernising_Medical_Careers

Drs have always resisted being made to choose a specialty and often wanted to try out a few jobs at a junior (SHO) level before committing to a train g programme but this does make things difficult for the NHS workforce planners and creates bottlenecks where people wait around for popular career choices rather than accepting less popular ones. MMC was brought in to deal with exactly this issue over 20 years ago substantially beggaring up my life and those of other Drs of my generation into the bargain

This is not the fault of IMGs. It is the fault of workforce planning and the difficulty of balancing peoples choices with what the NHS needs.

@poetryandwine find me the part about strikes ?

@ThePure I’m not blaming IMGs at all. But there is a finite amount of jobs.

And I think it’s a good idea to take some time trying out different things. This year though many F2s knew that wasn’t an option because jobs were not there in same numbers, so applied to training straight away. Many didn’t get in and have found they were right about lack of jobs. No one wants unemployed staff (midwifes now not finding jobs) but it’s happening sadly. Wish we were making it all up.

Its happened to ST/CT2s as well.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/jul/20/student-midwife-guaranteed-nhs-jobs-graduates

Have you not noticed the paper was published in 2023?

@poetryandwine yesss. But the comment was strikes are due to state school doctors. So how is this article relevant ?

Well there is no money. That is true. We don’t have money to waste making up posts for keen FY2s. I want the money spent on services for patients having had my business cases for a much needed innovative effective service turned down every year that’s where I want the money to go. I am just now trying to cobble together research and charitable funding for a clinical service that’s how bad it is. I’ll hopefully have a Band 4 post going that way if anyones interested £30,000 a year. At least it’s not Amazon.

I am afraid this may be a natural correction. If too many people were hanging around post FY doing locums and FY3 jobs for a few years and now they have all decided they do want a training post after all as well as this years FY2s then yes it will cause an issue but it is not an issue of IMGs making.

@mumsneedwine the BMJ Open paper @Marchesman found does show that medical students from state schools made different choices to those from independent schools.

I think she (?) was responding to the fact that evidence on that point had been requested.

You and others were also debating the behaviours of doctors from state vs independent schools in other ways.