To think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike?

[Locutus2000]

Last year they got more than anyone else in the NHS along with an improved deal. Nurses and other AHPs received lower rises.

BMA have just announced another 'resident' doctor strike continuing to chase pay restoration to 2008 levels.

Having just had the major win with changes to IMG prioritisation and the clamp-down on PAs it feels a bit tone-deaf and I can't see Streeting going for it.

@poetryandwineI think there is a perception that young doctors want to work in London because the ones that do tend to be quite forward about it. But most just quietly get on with the job and would be happy anywhere. Some are restricted in location due to family (hard to move if partners job is in that place and they can’t move), but when they rank deaneries most include everywhere. But this year there were not enough jobs anywhere. 35,000 applicants for 12,000 jobs. 11,000 F2s.

But if people are failing to apply for certain specialisms in which they could find employment then (a) there may be a systemic problem but (b) I also question how much they want to be a doctor.

I understand rejecting a couple of specialisms as incompatible with your talents, just as there is one major branch of my discipline that is incompatible with mine. But to decide you will only apply for Paediatrics or Cardiology when the system isn’t working well does not seem like the action of someone driven by a sense of vocation.

@poetryandwine specialities are v different. A GP will do a v different job from a ED doctor. You can’t just start a specialty and change, you’d have to go back to the start. Some do things that weren’t their first choice (why so many GP applicants !).

It’s a bit like saying I can’t get into law school so I’ll become a teacher. For life.

@poetryandwine what is it with vocation, what does that mean ? It’s a job like any other, yes it helps people, but what is this vocation ?

Non-training resident posts too - we never have any UK applicants for our renal JCF (IMT1-level) posts, despite leaving the advert open for at least two weeks. In London too, so should be plenty of candidates. Exact same T&Cs as the training posts. We’re explicit the post is suitable for people finishing FY2. I hear similar from our acute med and hepatology colleagues.

We get >1000 non-uk grads applying, so that is who we have to appoint if we want to fill the post. We’d much prefer somebody with some UK experience, but if they don’t apply we can’t appoint them.

It appears that is still the case.

Law and teaching have a reasonable overlap in terms of skills.

I never suggested making random applications. But similar specialisms.

@LemondrizzleShark something is going wrong with the system. I know several F2s in London who would love that job - they’ve been applying for loads but either never hear back or are told too many applicants the job has closed. How can this be fixed ?

@poetryandwine can you give examples of similar specialities ? And many do apply to a few and take the one they get. Quite common if not set on one.

@Locutus2000 it appears it isn’t
https://thematchguy.com/state-img-license-practice-without-residency-international-doctors/

I wasn't aware of that, but it's a special scheme for hard to recruit posts.

No need to be snippy either.

A few desperate states seem to have waived the USMLE in order to fill positions thst US educated medical students (equivalent of F2) will not take, in spite of outstanding pay and benefits. Because they are real hardship posts - profound service positions rather than training opportunities.

These are the ones Dr Melissa Ryan warns us her cohort will decamp to. As if

This is my point. It's not the gotcha the PP thinks.

If you depend less on the "many many" doctors that you claim to know, and the outpourings of the union, and instead take in the relevant data, you wouldn't need to ask.

This may help.

https://www.gmc-uk.org/about/what-we-do-and-why/data-and-research/the-state-of-medical-education-and-practice-in-the-uk/workforce-report

Doctors can have a sense of vocation without having to be Mother Teresa and wear a cilice. How many City lawyers are driven by such 'vocational' altruism and are they judged for it? I can answer that from my own direct experience - none and nope. Doctors are also humans with career and life choices to make.

Of course. But City lawyers are not supported at taxpayer expense and now threatening to strike because they aren’t necessarily getting a second consecutive pay rise of over 20%, far outstripping that of all other HMG employee cohorts.

But mainly I was being realistic. Pulling an example from my imagination, if you are convinced you want Cardiology but only Pulmonology is available, how much of a stretch is that really? There are many such pairings.

Do people do this? If you really aren’t interested, that’s your choice. However then it seems like you were fixated on an idealised image rather than the real world process of doing medicine.

UK doctoral students in science are advised to apply to at least five different funding sources, most of which restrict their training and research options. If you want to do science you must follow the money until you are in a position to design the project. It is the same thing.

They can apply? The advert is on NHS jobs, it is open for two weeks, we don’t cap applications, and we go through specifically looking for UK experience.

The people who you know “who would love those jobs” didn’t apply. Last one closed mid-June. I shortlisted. There were no applicants with any UK experience.

@poetryandwine supported by the tax payer ? How exactly. They will repay £250,000+ do not sure how they are supported. Oh and they are also tax payers

@LemondrizzleShark I have passed your comment on to one keen doctor and he is going to find the job and post in mess. Thank you.

@mumsneedwine What you describe costs money! It’s what Trusts don’t have. The training relies on other professionals who give up their time when they could be reducing waiting lists. The training has to be seen in terms of opportunity costs. So trusts employ the ready made dr from abroad.

Of course I don’t think it’s classroom training. Like many people for whom medicine is a family tradition, you are not on the true receiving end of mediocrity that’s inbuilt into the NHS . The NHS vastly over spends on compensation and many neutral commentators know change is long overdue. Many msny graduates would say they want a job, any job, for which they have trained. Welcome to the real world.

Doctors received msssive pay awards and working hours improvements under Blair. They had better enhancements than nearly everyone else last year but the complaining never ends. It’s like a conveyor belt of union action and patients are obviously an inconvenience in the pursuit of ever increasing money, This seems to have limited jobs. So be it for the moment. They’ve priced themselves out of a job it would appear. Then it will get sorted out and the nhs will gobble up more money with no improvement in productivity whilst the self employed millions get no employer input for pensions, no maternity leave and have to think very hard about taking holidays. Guess what, they aren’t paid during them either. Can you not see why the doctors are annoying people now?

All NHS salaries are paid by UK taxpayers - that is a pretty basic definition of support.

@LemondrizzleShark sorry, we can’t find it. Is it labelled Trust Grade or something else ?

No student loan is £250,000. They repay loans on the same basis as everyone else. Except i guess now they won’t because they are more valuable than everyone else!

@poetryandwine 😂😂😂😂 supported is not paid for the job you do. Bizarre comment.

@poetryandwine Never mind the opportunity costs. Not that I want more and more doctors from abroad but it’s more efficient!