To think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike?

[Locutus2000]

Last year they got more than anyone else in the NHS along with an improved deal. Nurses and other AHPs received lower rises.

BMA have just announced another 'resident' doctor strike continuing to chase pay restoration to 2008 levels.

Having just had the major win with changes to IMG prioritisation and the clamp-down on PAs it feels a bit tone-deaf and I can't see Streeting going for it.

Not at all - because you have copied an online advertisement.

You need to go into a chemist to get it over the counter.

A picture tells a thousand stories

I think the PA was a mistake. An expansion in non-training posts for medical graduates would have made a great deal more sense. More versatile, also able to provide continuity, and as with paralegals there would be the prospect of switching to a training pathway to maintain interest and a supply of the most able.

If anyone has a satisfactory explanation for the PA I would be interested to see it. My guess is that managerial types saw an opportunity to develop something new to advance their own careers, which seems to me to be the explanation for most things that are wrong with the NHS.

I think this one tells one of two stories. There is another if you use CPI.

Here's the CPI version...

.... Now what?

CPI data from an unbiased source, i.e. not the BMA, perhaps?

www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/news-item/resident-doctor-pay-how-do-different-methods-affect-how-pay-changes-appear

So, @mumsneedwine , apparently these very high PGY3 offers (for doctors who have just completed internships, the equivalent of F2) are a thing. But unless your DD has applied she has a solicitation rather than a job offer.

They are indeed for jobs Americans are not taking. When Americans take them, they come with (vast amounts of) medical school debt forgiveness. But this does not entice many.

The jobs are rural, and your DD’s advert is for rural GA and rural FL. ‘Red states’ is the least of it. Summer temperatures are routinely in the 30s with near 100% humidity. Hurricanes, tornadoes and tropical cyclones are part of the fun. The record temperature in GA is 44 and that in FL is 42. Think it is going to get better?

Rural American poverty is difficult to imagine until you have seen it. These states have almost no safety net. I think the culture shock for Brits would be …. startling. At best.

Also, unlike proper residencies, the pay for these jobs tends to come with restrictions such as clawbacks if you don’t serve your full term, etc - this according to a resident’s board on reddit. While the purpose of residency is supposed to be education, the purpose of these jobs is providing basic medical care to the some of poorest and most problematic patient cohorts in America. That’s hugely admirable but has little to do with explicit training or structuring a career.

After all her blather about quadrupling pay I would like to see Dr Melissa Ryan serving out the required term in one of these jobs. I really doubt she could do it.

And before you point out that pay is still 4.7% less than in 2008/9, the hours worked after that year fell by twice that.

The chart i posted was ONS data.

Try harder.

"Produced by Dr Tony Goldstone based on re-analysis of NHS digital pay data."
vs.
Nuffield Trust analysis.

Try harder.

(My bold).

@poetryandwine my DD never applied to America ? She did for Australia but not NZ. It’s not just her that gets recruiting emails, it’s all of them. Doctors are in short supply in many countries and despite some thinking their useless other countries highly rate our staff.

In which case Dr unemployment will not be a problem. Junior Drs have always gone to work overseas largely in Aus & NZ and some of theirs come over here. It’s fun, it’s good experience and most people come back.

It’s hard to square the circle of oversupply of Drs leading to mass unemployment vs demands for higher pay. If you have an oversupply of something you do not pay more for it you pay less.

If Drs go overseas en masse there will then not be enough Drs and pay rates will have to rise to entice them back. Asking for more pay and asking for jobs to be ringfenced for U.K. grads at the same time doesn’t make economic sense.

Yes it is difficult to understand how campaigning for higher pay will help young Doctors get jobs
No one is guaranteed a job in any walk of life
Its good they can go abroad and get more experience and then maybe be more able to get a job here

The point of my message is that no one (looking at Dr MelissaRyan) should be bragging about being recruited for those American jobs or using them as comparators. They are jobs Americans, who are generally sensitive to salary and benefits, do not want. For good reason.

I agree with this completely but somehow I doubt those who have secured specialist training positions will be decamping overseas en masse.

As you say, there is always a bit of give and take. That can be done whilst giving preferential treatment to doctors educated at the expense of British taxpayers for specialist training positions - a few excellent IMG are always welcome.

Whose bragging ? I made a comment about a fact. Other countries are short of doctors and trying to recruit ours. Not sure the whole of America care all that much.

The contempt for doctors shown here, including v sadly by supposed consultants, is v sad. No idea why people keep comparing to other graduate jobs because I’m unaware of anyone in the City facing unemployment in 3 weeks with no other employer to go to.

Doctors pay and conditions are not good. Yes they are not supposed to work 80 hour weeks any more (I say supposed as it does happen - short staffing is a massive problem in many DGHs), but that is a patient safety issue and was fought by previous doctors to stop. Fighting for your rights gets things changed for the better, and valued employed doctors means a better NHS for all.

@ThePure over supply of doctors is only because we employ so many IMGs, many from red list countries. Which I find immoral. Many have no intention of staying long term. Doctors used to go abroad for fun but now they do if it to have a job, and it’s not possible for many as the visas are expensive. And people have families.

CCT and flee is a v common thing.

I already answered your question: Dr Ryan

I don’t know very much about jobs in the city but lots of graduates are struggling to find work
Primary school teachers for a start
Its all supply and demand I suppose

Its a shame for individuals who fail to secure a training position but that’s life ,nobody is guaranteed a straightforward career progression
Still don’t see how campaigning for more money helps

We’ve always employed IMGs too. The reason I hate to see these Drs being denigrated is that well over half my current consultant colleagues didn’t graduate in the U.K. and they are excellent Drs doing jobs that no-one else will do. In some cases jobs have been advertised repeatedly with no applicants so we were forced to actively try to recruit overseas. In other cases these are people who came up through the U.K. training system with me, having found a training job despite the previous immigration rules, and are a huge benefit to the NHS. Some immigration in medicine is good and necessary.

Training posts sometimes attract no applicants? In light of the crisis why does that happen?

Of course we need some international exchange but it is a terrible waste to educate doctors through F2 and then have nowhere for them to go. If Americans can find jobs for 94% of their F2 equivalents - all announced on the same day! - on a vastly larger scale the problem can be solved (partly with preferential treatment).

NB I don’t generally think Americans have the best way of doing things, but Match Day is impressive

I am not denigrating IMGs, never have and never would. Doctors are all wonderful in my eyes. However, I do have a problem with us taking doctors from poorer countries who need them more. Not doctors fault for coming. And we now have unemployed doctors trained here (some from abroad) so they should get priority for jobs.

Who is Dr Ryan ?

@poetryandwine It’s because doctors have preferences. They like some aspects of medicine and not others. The gaps are filled with doctors from abroad and they come ready qualified so are cheaper.