To think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike?

[Locutus2000]

Last year they got more than anyone else in the NHS along with an improved deal. Nurses and other AHPs received lower rises.

BMA have just announced another 'resident' doctor strike continuing to chase pay restoration to 2008 levels.

Having just had the major win with changes to IMG prioritisation and the clamp-down on PAs it feels a bit tone-deaf and I can't see Streeting going for it.

A consultant on one of these threads mentioned that the low level of training numbers relative to doctors applying for training posts reflected the number of consultant posts ultimately available in the NHS. It's almost deliberate that training numbers are kept low and the model of healthcare emerging appears to be one based on fewer numbers of doctors handling the more complicated cases with non-doctors handling what is deemed to be more straightforward cases using set protocols.

I think it's no longer the case that all doctors can work their way up to become consultants and do private work on the side like you suggest.

Perhaps there should have been more transparency at the start of medical school on how many training posts would become available to medical graduates at the different stages of their career before they take on more than £100k debt. It's not fair on doctors to find out after they have started their journey that there are no jobs for them after 7 years of medical training.

Very definitely the case that it’s not only Drs who prescribe these days. I have supervised a lot of non medical prescribers to qualify to do it. As long as they stick to their wheelhouse it’s jolly useful.

It was an electronic one. She just sent it to the pharmacy directly.

Doctors can’t handle the complicated cases unless they’ve learned on the simpler ones. Training can’t jump steps !

When the current F2s applied for medicine, in 2017, there wasn’t unemployment, wages were not too bad and the NHS was not an alphabet soup of jobs. No time machines were available unfortunately. Now students can see the mess and majority I know plan to train and flee asap. Which is scary being older !

@OneMorePiece But there will be bins because the government is curbing overseas doctors. Not that trusts can afford the training! Yet more costs! Doctors still get the best return on their degrees. They don’t have the huge competition people face for city jobs. Nowhere near. If they wanted those jobs, why didn’t they do another degree? It’s not as if they didn’t know they would work for the NHS.

@mumsneedwine So DD is getting Y3 offers on tne American scale. On the salary ranges I posted, towards the lower end.

Augusta University (Augusta, GA) salaries range from $62K for F1 equivalent to $80K+ for Senior Registrar equivalent. This is a partnership with U GA. I cannot find Medical College of Georgia information but expect it to be broadly similar.

University of Florida Medical School has the best training programme in Florida. The salary range is $67K - 84K (7 years of training).

I am stand by my comments thst no American hospitals are offering Y3 $149K without a major catch. Americans, who have the pick of American jobs, would be taking these if they were desirable.

@TizerorFizz city jobs have lots of employers, so even if 500 applicants for 1 job there will be many other similar jobs available that year. Lots if which will be v highly paid. Doctors get one go at applying for speciality jobs (2 for a few) and ratios are up to 45:1. No other option with another employer, or try again next month. For F3 type jobs there are 400+ applicants within hours and the job closes.
45% of F2s predicted to unemployed in 3 weeks. While we have non doctors earning 30% more. Money is not spent on the qualified front line doctors and nurses as it should be.

@poetryandwine DD has been offered $149,000 basic for Resident PG3 jobs. Maybe Americans don’t want them. But her friends who are there earn loads more than her.

And when I worked in the City I wasn’t expected to save any lives. Was asked to destroy a few (which is why I left).

I’m surprised that U.K. Drs are getting any job offers from the US. In the past it wasn’t really an option because they did not recognise our qualifications so it was only an option if you additionally studied for their exams (USMLE). That’s why NZ or Aus were always yeh English speaking destinations of choice because we have reciprocal recognition of qualifications.

@ThePure 5 states changed their rules last year. They must be desperate !

Will be. Not happy that I was being seen by a person who is not a doctor. Have seen nurses, physios and podiatrists and have no problem with them. Don't see what PAs have to add.

I don't understand why people are just angry about the striking doctors. How about all the taxpayer money and resources wasted on training people who ultimately will not be able to diagnose and manage conditions correctly? Also the large salaries spent on NHS management?

As a patient, I want to see a doctor not a PA. I don't want to wait another 6 months to see the doctor while my health deteriorates further. Perhaps some on here don't use the NHS but go private. It's depressing as a patient to be bumped from pillar to post due to reported shortages within the NHS. How terrible then to hear that doctors are available but are not securing jobs that would alleviate the problems in the NHS. I know you don't approve much of PAs but just feel that consultants should be training resident doctors not PAs just because it's more convenient (PAs don't rotate).

@mumsneedwine That’s not what happens though. There are jobs but not one highly paid job per applicant - or even close! Those who don’t get £100,000 by 25 in London aren’t getting £90,000 in a small company in Birmingham or in Newcastle. They are probably getting £30,000 in Liverpool. Loads don’t get anywhere near the higher paid roles - well not at 21-22.

There are to be 15,000 medical school places by 2031. It’s around 7800 now I believe in 44 medical schools. What’s the point of this if there are no jobs? On your figures only 173 doctors get jobs at each round. Only allowed 2 rounds so employment stats are 350/7800: I don’t believe it. apologies if my maths is wrong! Also in what walk of life does everyone get promotion and training for what they want immediately they want it? Only doctors.

The hesa salary review puts doctors top. I can see there are some difficulties but that is a new situation and should be improved. In the city you might have any applicants with one of 20 degrees and want a consultancy job. Not just one degree. It’s significantly more complex and leads to even economics and maths grads earning less than doctors overall.

Doctors regularly work part time and have stellar pensions. It seems voting feels the same as I do - it’s gone too far and it’s greedy.

@TizerorFizz doctors used to have great pensions. New one is not half as good unfortunately but just as expensive for staff.

When I applied for graduate jobs in the city I applied for 15 banks, all offering silly money. Took the one with the best perks. Absolutely hated it after 2 years but the money was awesome and got promoted. Lots of jobs were available if I’d wanted to stay in the City. This was in the 1980s though 😂

Maths is a big wrong as many applicants are from abroad. Quite a big part of the problem. F1 jobs are matched to number of medical school graduates, but no one thought that opening these up to anyone in the world might cause a problem.

@mumsneedwine Sorry! That’s utter rubbish. They get 29.% added in from the taxpayer! Or my DCs future taxes as the government borrows it. It’s gold plated and everyone knows it. It’s so big they retire early! And then complain about it being taxed - like everyone else is who has paid for it! Self employed get 0% from an employer. Many companies barely put in 5%. They are market based pension products, not guaranteed by the government.

This is the nub of the problem isn’t it. Doctors are well off but are adept at saying they are not and everyone falls for it. And are they ever made redundant? Told to do less hours as the business is failing? Take a pay cut? Never. Most do pretty well and the prestige to be a Doctor is still there judging by HE thread! The parents are desperate for dc to be chosen for medical school! If it’s so rotten, why? Truthfully it’s not, hence it’s popular.

Obviously foreign recruitment to save training costs was misguided but trusts need to be efficient don’t they? Too many are wasteful and have poor outcomes for patients. Maybe if compensation wasn’t £ billions they could train doctors.

Mostly you do need the USMLE, @ThePure Desperation has led a few states to drop it. But everything @mumsneedwine is saying makes it sound like if her DD has an actual job offer (I think it sounds more like an advert) it is for a job Americans do not want.

Her DD is Y3 which is the beginning of what American call residency, the first year of CT or ST training. With a highly undesirable job, that training is not likely to be very good.

We can see from the salaries I found that after currency conversion in the early years US resident doctors at top training programmes make somewhat more that British counterparts. The difference is lessened as training continues and (generally) reversed at Senior Registrar level.

(Another data point: UCLA (elite) range is $89K- 113K over 9 years of training. Much higher than the UK at the beginning, only slightly higher at the end. Very expensive city.

I do not understand why IMG would brag about being recruited for work that Americans do not want. Talking to you, Dr Melissa Ryan.

Still curious about the details of where these jobs are, @mumsneedwine

The details on how prioritisation is going to be implemented are yet to be revealed. Huge competition for top legal and finance jobs have always existed. In these jobs, there are lots of employers and if the working conditions are bad, you are free to join another employer.
Until they become consultants, (a journey that would take, say 12-15 years, assuming consultant posts are available) doctors can't train and work in private hospitals. They can only train in the NHS. Working conditions and training opportunities in the NHS have deteriorated rapidly since the latest cohorts of doctors started medical school. They want to become doctors. Shouldn't they be supported to get quality training in the interests of patients? Is it fair on them to start medical school incurring a large amount of debt only to find the NHS in a dire state and the training opportunities to be vastly reduced compared to when they started medical school?

Isn’t it? I’d genuinely like to know how and where it’s available off prescription in the UK.

@OneMorePiece Well no job no debt! I’m sure you really do know how student loans work.

Well actually most have got work and training historically. I acknowledged the blip and of course it needs sorting out. However in the long run doctors do well.

I’m assuming your dc never applied for a highly paid city job? I think you have no idea of the competition! Have you seen the success rates vs applicants for fast track civil service? Probably not but it’s unbelievably competitive. Yes doctors have one employer. Unfortunately. Maybe they could improve that employer rather than running off elsewhere to private systems? USA and Australia?m to name two. Maybe help the people who stumped up the loan in the first place and have nothing like the benefits of employment doctors get? This take take attitude is annoying people now. No overseas doctors - uk ones stay for our benefit after yet more expensive training and massive pay rises. That might be a result.

'non-doctor' might have been confusing. Just me being lazy 😆 typing the words those in posts other than doctor, eg PAs, AAs, etc. I meant to say an NHS model with much fewer consultants and many lower paid clinicians. Hence the use of PAs, etc instead of training doctors who ultimately might earn higher salaries if they become consultants if these posts are made available. Not good for patients or doctors.

I’m sure you really do know how student loans work.

Not sure why there is a need for you to say something like that! You know what I mean by a young person dedicating 7 years of their lives only to find that someone's moved the goalposts.

You have no idea what I do for a living. Please don't make assumptions. I am well aware of competition in graduate sectors other than medicine. You don't need to be applying to be aware of the difficulties new graduates are facing in securing jobs. We should be supportive of our young people especially since they have been adversely affected over the years by poor political decisions.

What take take attitude are you referring to? Go complain to those striking. I just want to see a well functioning NHS so patients receive the right level of care. Given the shortage of training numbers, I think it's right that UKMGs are prioritised first. However, it's also fair to accommodate IMGs who have made valuable contributions to the NHS. Just don't know how this is all going to be implemented.

As for city jobs, I have never been interested in them. My DC are young and haven't finished university. There is no need to make it personal by bringing my DC into the discussion. I leave them to make their own decisions in relation to careers so am bemused why anyone on Mumsnet would even think of mentioning them on a random thread.

Anywhere. Eg Boots Period Pain Reliever 250mg Gastro-Resistant Tablets

This Medicine is sold by BOOTS UK LIMITED at the professional discretion of a Boots pharmacist.
Your order will be reviewed by a member of the pharmacy team at Boots, Parkway, Centrum 100, Burton-on-Trent, DE14 2WA (GPhC registration number 9010720).
You can reach us by phone at tel:0345 121 9040 0345 121 9040 (select option 3), or email us at [email protected].
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Not exactly over the counter, is it?