To think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike?

[Locutus2000]

Last year they got more than anyone else in the NHS along with an improved deal. Nurses and other AHPs received lower rises.

BMA have just announced another 'resident' doctor strike continuing to chase pay restoration to 2008 levels.

Having just had the major win with changes to IMG prioritisation and the clamp-down on PAs it feels a bit tone-deaf and I can't see Streeting going for it.

It isn’t contempt. Brilliant PG biomedical scientists of the same age as F1s with crushing workloads, on a fraction of the salary and with no paid overtime, would beg to differ.

To say nothing of the auxiliary HCPs mentioned above.

So fight for better pay. It’s not a race to the bottom !

@Peppy88 I lived in America for a while and am puzzled by the comments from Dr Melissa Ryan and others on the 400% pay rise resident doctors would instantly find there.

Consultant level Doctors of Internal Medicine (not a UK specialism AFAIK) make in the region of $130-150K pa. Interns, who are the equivalent of F1-F2, seem to be making
$45-60K pa. American resident doctors seem to average about $70-75K, that is typically for 3-4 years. Some specialities require a second residency or fellowship which presumably pays a bit more.

But in the same search bad AI confused those Consultants in Internal Medicine (who are not called Consultants) with interns. I wonder if that is a source of misunderstanding?

Yes, when I think about how the junior drs ( as they were known) were spoken to by the consultants over 20 years ago, I am pleased there has been progress. Learning by fear and humiliation.

I am certainly not defending bullying, @Minnie798

They were treated appallingly back then. I do hope that's improved

@Peppy88

America does not have any kind of national pay scale for doctors. Even the top institutions (eg Mass General) which will accept only a few into training, are starting CT-ST equivalents around $83K and rising to just over $100K for Fellows (roughly the equivalent of Senior Registrar). After exchanging currencies the top levels are better here.

Auxiliary benefits seem variable so that’s not it. I defo need evidence in order to believe Dr Melissa Ryan’s claim that unhappy resident doctors can instantly quadruple salary in America. Until then I think the bad AI I mentioned above is the most likely mistake

I wrote goodbye letters to my husband and kids at the start of the pandemic. The narrative at work was that lots of us would die. I was terrified. But ofc I went to work, cancelled my leave and didn’t take a day off. It feels a bit dramatic and OTT now that I wrote those letters but at the time I was so scared, and cried as I wrote them. I have them in a drawer but can’t touch them still.

Happily my newspaper has a fair number of articles concerning senior doctors being disciplined for bullying. Sounds proper to me

The way some consultants treated us as new house officers in the 90s was appalling. That combined with 56 hour shifts made work life a living hell!

I am so happy that things are different now. My relationship with the residents is probably one of the most rewarding parts of my job.

I am in no way an arrogant doctor and I love the more flattened hierarchy we have at work these days.

The only thing I would say when comparing with other professions is that there is something uniquely stressful about having someone’s life and health essentially in your hands. Going home and worrying if your treatment decision will directly lead to the death (or hopefully recovery) of a patient. I do think that does need to be recognised.

And I can’t imagine what it is like for a pilot who has literally hundreds of lives in their hands every flight.

@mumsneedwine I think it’s the continual complaining, getting bigger pay rises than nearly everyone else, not producing more (nhs) and still endlessly complaining! It feels relentless. In addition coroners say they have killed patients, nhs compensation payouts were £2.8 billion and the state puts 29% into their pensions so they barely need to work for 30 years. No other sector in the state gets this. It comes across as greedy and entitled. Other people do important jobs but don’t have a shouty union. Many are aghast at doctors not caring about patients when their long term gains are so good when compared to others. The government will cave in and the people who need houses, have child care costs and don’t go on strike will all be worse off. Another winter of discontent and a lot of us a fed up with it when they got so much recently and associated pension contributions. Maybe they should try being self employed and pay for their own pensions?

I think this is never thought about. How it feels to have someone’s life in your hands.

Pilots have this taken into consideration with both their pay and limited hours. £100,000+ for first officer and max 100 hours every 28 days. For safety reasons 😊

Five years out isn’t easy to find. You are the ine who wants this info, so please share a source if you find it.

A site called Living Careers purports to list the 50 highest paid lifetime careers in granular detail. (1) is CEO but (2) is surgeon and (3) is anaesthetist. Psychiatrist, Medical Director and a couple of other medical specialisms are on the list.

So about 10% of the positions go to doctors, in a comparison with some cohorts who clearly have other intellectual gifts, mostly work in the private sector, take greater risks and certainly have weaker pensions. Pretty good for one discipline.

@TizerorFizz do you really think that £17 an hour is a good wage ? £24 for the doctor performing your caesarean. Yes, one day, if they are lucky and can get into training, they will earn a decent wage.

And I don’t know one doctor who doesn’t care about their patients. Otherwise they’d go home on time and not do hours of unpaid overtime.

@poetryandwine I’m not the one comparing with other random graduates ? Frankly don’t care what others earn in different areas (except vets, whose pay is frankly Dickensian). But you can’t compare a wage 15 months after graduating for both as doctors will still be at Uni 15 months after the others have left.

So training capacity and opportunities for doctors like yourself back in your day weren't reduced like they are now (due to PAs being trained in preference to resident doctors by consultants because they prefer non-rotating assistants)? Are you not concerned about scope creep by PAs and AAs?

A few weeks ago, I was prescribed Naproxen by a Physician's Associate. How is this possible if they are not supposed to prescribe?

My DC also once saw a PA who couldn't answer any questions about his condition. We had to wait while she went to get the consultant. Not only a waste of our time but also a waste of time for other people waiting in the waiting room. The nurses told us there were two doctors that day before we went in when there were in fact just the consultant and the PA seeing patients separately. Both PAs were lovely people but what a waste of time to see someone who doesn't have the necessary knowledge and skills to diagnose and manage conditions correctly and safely!

At 14.15 today you suggested a comparison between doctors’ salaries and others’ salaries five years out. I was only responding to your post, to the extent practicable, as the embedded quotation shows

Embedded quotation in my post of 15.12, I mean

@poetryandwine I was commenting on another post that had made a claim about doctors pay 15 months out.

@poetryandwine this one.

Well you did suggest making a comparison so one presumes it wasn’t an idle comment

A Hospitalist (equivalent of GIM Consultant) earned more like $300-400k in 2022, according to this thread of American hospitalists. No idea where your $120k came from but no consultant level doctor in the US earns that little.

www.reddit.com/r/hospitalist/comments/1aftay1/hospitalist_salary_2024/

@poetryandwine assume you saw the post I was commenting on and why comparisons are meaningless ?

F2s offered $149,000 as starting pay in US. They are actively recruiting !