To think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike?

[Locutus2000]

Last year they got more than anyone else in the NHS along with an improved deal. Nurses and other AHPs received lower rises.

BMA have just announced another 'resident' doctor strike continuing to chase pay restoration to 2008 levels.

Having just had the major win with changes to IMG prioritisation and the clamp-down on PAs it feels a bit tone-deaf and I can't see Streeting going for it.

@justasking111 provided accommodation would be so helpful, especially for first year. Would also bring some team support, rather than being moved somewhere you don’t know anyone and having to rent with strangers. For all medical staff.

Those older doctors trained under harsher conditions, as has been established upthread.

They were trained before anti bullying was a gleam in anyone’s eye and it is my sense from doctors amongst family and friends that many were subject to accusations of useless, and worse.

Most on the thread expressing a view agree that some type of post-service loan forgiveness is a good idea.

Military, including doctors, and police are prepared to put themselves in harm’s way to protect the rest of us. They deserve remuneration reflecting this risk.

Military, including doctors, and police are prepared to put themselves in harm’s way to protect the rest of us. They deserve remuneration reflecting this risk.

Was 2020 really that long ago?

Seems so 😡

I would agree with loan cancellation after a certain period of NHS service as well. That seems more proportionate than strident ‘pay restoration’ demands that come off so tone deaf in the current climate.

The free accommodation wasn’t greatly useful to me as a junior Dr. It was only for FY1 and I was married and wanted to live with my husband so I commuted unless on call. Cheap subsidised accommodation for those who want it is a good idea (but might attract more of those pesky foreign Drs)

Loan cancellation certainly looks like the way forward to me. It appals me that student loans are applicable to healthcare professionals in the first place. Always has.

Covid was incredibly serious. However for some perspective, it was the only significant event causing loss of life to HCP in 100 years. A search informs me that 49 doctors are known to have died and yes that is tragic.

However over the last 100 years over 4000 police have died on the job. Starting after WWIi, over 7100 British military have died on duty.

So the doctors’ deaths, whilst tragic, came at an average rate of 25/yr for 2 years. The police deaths average 40/yr over 100 years (lessened recently) and the military deaths average over 88/yr for 80 years, with obvious variations.

The statistics do not compare.

@BlossomtoesHesa data in the Timex today reveals, yet again, that doctors are the best paid grads after 15 months of leaving university. Neither do they lose that position as time goes by. Why on earth should those who have cost us the most to train, earn the best out of any degree subject and shout the loudest get loans written off? What about all the other professions we need? They need to reduce the state contribution to their pensions! Why should the state keep paying more and more? They benefit from their education more than all other grads. Their greed and uncaring nature towards ill people is appalling.

Whilst that is certainly true (and I have a lot of admiration for military service) I think people do forget that whilst in the end not many Drs or HCPs did die we really thought at the start of it that we might. With the benefit of hindsight Covid was not a danger to most young fit people but I really did think I was risking my life going to work at the outset (that was the prevailing narrative) and I was scared. I knew that a paper mask and a glorified bin bag were not going to save me. I recall thinking something along the lines of ‘this is your job. This is what you signed up for. Get out there.’ I sure as hell checked my life insurance provision. If it is something deadly next time then we will still turn out just the same. It does apply equally as much to more poorly paid nurses, HCAs, AHPs and care staff so it’s not a good argument to be paid more but we are willing to sacrifice.

I think the state of the loans is an issue for many, @TizerorFizz . Doctors are amongst those who can provide a genuine national service in lieu. The Consultant in the Guardian specified five years of full time NHS work, presumably at GP or Consultant level.

Similar schemes have bern working well in America for a long time.

I would equally favour offering loan forgiveness to anyone else providing a national service - nurses, teachers, STEM professionals etc, who go where they are needed (in the public sector) and make a similar commitment. I think the nation wins.

You may have a point regarding pensions. I am not knowledgeable.

Maybe they have but if junior doctors leave for the private sector as soon as they can, because of poor pay, it's the general public (many of whom are the whingers) will be the ones that will suffer. Maybe not immediately, but down the line.

I agree the lack of proper equipment was appalling, and seems to have been worse than some other countries. That was wrong. I think it was largely down to incompetence - ministers diverting contracts to their inexperienced pals and such.

As a point of curiosity, do you think the current of trainees lot are equally dedicated in the face of danger?

Some of them absolutely were and some less so and managed to get signed off front line work. Same was true of older Drs too. I didn’t think it was generational. It did not appear to correlate much to the actual risk either with many older BAME staff who were genuinely at higher risk carrying on and a number of people who were surprisingly discovered to have asthma and got signed off.

Not really the point how many actually died. More to the point is that they were "prepared to put themselves in harm’s way to protect the rest of us" when they had no idea the extent of the danger they were putting themselves in.* *

Please see the post just above yours, @ShellacofChopin , from a Consultant.

Agreed.

Grinning army officers in orange beanie hats, shouting and waving placards? I don't think so.

Also, "200 applicants per post within 12-24 hours" or paid less than "the cleaner on Xmas day" is a somewhat confused narrative.

Regarding Covid, I am sure that you will find that it was predominantly older doctors with preexisting health problems who died.

The BMA and their supporters seem determined to destroy their credibility.

Absolutely right. I think most people, including most doctors, agree.

I think on reflection that people are people and there were always more and less dedicated and hard working Drs but the change in work culture now means that anyone who is disposed to take advantage has a lot more opportunities with no come back.
Getting signed off working nights is fairly common now as is requesting work from home days. It’s unimaginable to me how such expectations are compatible with the job but apparently they are.

@ThePure
"Getting signed off working nights is fairly common now as is requesting work from home days."

Try that in the army.

Thus far Covid is part of a once per century pattern of pandemics. From that perspective we are entitled to include WW2 as a singular military event.

That changes the statistics as over 383,000 British military were killed in the line of duty. This brings the 100 year military death toll to 393,000. As against a doctor casualty number I cannot even find, outside of the 49 Covid deaths.

Over 400 school teachers and auxiliary staff and over 180 HE and FE professionals have died from mesothelioma since 1980. Asbestos in schools has been a known problem not well dealt with.

Teaching appears to be considerably more deadly as well as more poorly paid than doctoring.

Medicine takes 5-6 years. Other degrees often 3. So let’s look at earnings 5 + years after graduating as a better comparison.

And doctors wouldn’t wear beany hats and strike if they earned £75,000 as an F1 either. Same doctors doing same rotations as their colleagues. Just £40,000 more.
But the contempt for doctors is so clear on here. It’s the way the NHS treats them too. Why I do not know. Only country in the world where doctors are treated with contempt. V strange.

Can’t work private until consultant so 10 years post qualifying. Unless a GP who can do it sooner.

I know someone who did FY1, FY2 and then left to do management consulting at Deloitte.

Not uncommon these days. No point being unemployed after F2.