To think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike?

[Locutus2000]

Last year they got more than anyone else in the NHS along with an improved deal. Nurses and other AHPs received lower rises.

BMA have just announced another 'resident' doctor strike continuing to chase pay restoration to 2008 levels.

Having just had the major win with changes to IMG prioritisation and the clamp-down on PAs it feels a bit tone-deaf and I can't see Streeting going for it.

Can't they work as an FY3 or a locally employed doctor?

That is the real issue. Boris' scrapping of the Resident Market Labour Test and listing all doctor jobs as skills shortage jobs means that vacancies will attract applications from all over the world. Those resident in the UK get no priority.

First there is the barrier of writing lots and lots of applications knowing fully well that there will be hundreds of another applicants, perhaps even thousands. Not easy if you are on a heavily loaded rotation and you know that overseas applicants will have had the support of agencies to polish their CVs and identify vacancies. Because of the sheer numbers of applicants vacancies often close within a few hours.

Then the best qualified applicant gets the job., So the experienced doctor from Malawi, incentivised by the enhanced family settlement rights, and willing to start at the bottom of the pay scale for an entry level job, could well the strongest applicant.

Ergo lots and lots of soon to b e unemployed F2s. DDs experience is that consultants don't want to lose her or her peers, but they can't employ them without going through the process. DD then hoped to get a maternity leave cover, but there is virtually no spare money sloshing around so there will b e no cover. And any spare money will be used to cover for the strikes.

@Minnie798 they are making the case on their own merits. But PAs are called a physician assistant and it shows money is there to pay less qualified staff more. GPs were given money to hire anyone but a doctor or a nurse. And also some PAs have been trying to act as doctors. On doctors GMC licence and liability. They are losing training opportunities to PAs as consultants train them before the doctors, because PAs are not made to move every 6 months. But hopefully after yesterday this will improve.

Money is always not a problem if you have it.

The way to get doctors paid better is to completely get rid of the NHS. We can have universal healthcare with a social insurance system.

The big issue is how young doctors get that initial training and experience.

This is the big attraction of the NHS for newly qualified overseas doctors, especially in Asian countries where private medical schools are pumping out graduates, but the private sector is only interested in consultants (because that is who their patients want to see.)

It is so short sighted not to give resident priority, which Australia, NZ and other countries do, and risk taking on doctors who don't plan to stay long time. Whilst at the same time leaving our own graduates without the jobs and experience they need. This is particularly acute in hard to recruit areas where young doctors from the area, if given the chance, would stay their full career. In contract overseas doctors often seen the job or the training post as a short term stepping stone and move as soon as something in a major English city comes up.

Unless we have a pathway to either consultancy or to speciality (house) doctor positions we will have a problem whatever system we employ. I am generally in favour of PAs, ANPs etc in the right positions, but using them as pseudo doctors in jobs where a broader medical education is needed is madness. Especially when we had the young doctors, but chose to export them to Australia.

Because of this inability to retain doctors from England or from overseas in training and other posts, DD tells me that their wait lists are awful. The Did Not Attend problem, so common in London is non existent. You attend or risk waiting years for another appointment. Charging, or co-payment would help in London where people can be casual about a free health service. But other areas need that broken career path mended, and this means giving good applicants already in the country, including overseas doctors who have come to the end of fixed term contracts, or women returning from career breaks, priority over those who may never have even visited the UK, let alone worked for the NHS.

DD is unemployed from 7 August. Perhaps Amazon will have some work in the run up to Christmas....

This from Prof Leng. Admitting the problem is a massive start to fixing it

I'll help you with that. What she said was:

"The one in two rotas that I experienced as a houseman were clearly unsafe and change was needed, but now all sense of teamwork and mentorship in medicine seems to have been lost, with residents often feeling isolated and unsupported. Their shift patterns and rotations are not just challenging for personal reasons, they also do not provide time to build important workplace relationships."

Juniors' personal and relationship problems date from the full implementation of the EWTD in 2009, and it has got worse as the calibre of medical graduate has deteriorated. This document is not "a massive start to fixing it", anymore than "Wes" 's neighbourhood services plan is going to fix medical unemployment.

What might help, is properly informing potential applicants to medicine of what to expect, weeding out those that lack the resilience and intellect to succeed.

I know which type of consultant I’d want to work for. One who wants to invest in my training and cares about me as a future consultant, or one who denigrates medical graduates as not v good these days. I have no words to describe how disgusting that comment is - especially as it’s your fellow consultants who train them at Uni.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/jul/17/resident-doctors-nhs-greedy-pay-wes-streeting

I think as below junior doctors are suffering from reputational damage from both the public and peers. If there are systemic problems with recruitment and the role in general the BMA should be discussing those not pi&ing everyone off by hyper inflationary pay demands. There will be real ramifications to the government's reforms of the junior doctor pay demands are met - and they certainly won't be to the benefit of the patient.

@mids2019 they are discussing those things as we write. They are also asking for pay restoration over many years, something Wes agreed with last year. So a plan to restore doctors to earn more than the cleaner on Xmas day (& before you start, cleaners are v important too, but don’t decide if I live or not at 2am).

They have already had "pay restoration".

They earn more than Oxford and Cambridge graduates five years after leaving university. The latter are drawn from the top 1% of the population for attainment cf. current medical graduates from the top 20%, so there is a long line of people queuing up for their jobs.

Their prospects of getting more pay are nonexistent.

£38.8k is great. Even in London. Quite a few of DS's colleagues are in the low 30s and just flat share in London and have a jolly good life.

£39k and the salary progressions after, mint.

One of the largest UK law firms receives 4000 applications each year for 200 jobs.The successful are paid £33,000 p.a. outside London.

Junior doctors are guaranteed jobs for two years and then a competition/jobs ratio 10x smaller.

Ratios for infividual training specialties.

The jobs I advertise and shortlist for generally have around 200 applicants per post within 12-24 hours, so, 10x higher than the law jobs you reference.

There are three thoughtful letters in the Guardian today about the strike. They generally publish in the ratio of opinions received overall. These are 2 against and 1 for.

The most intriguing is from Dr Ieuan Davies (against), a paediatric consultant. He says he would sympathise if the focus were shifted to debt forgiveness and employment conditions. He favours deferring, then writing off, the student loan at the end of 5 yrs full time NHS consultant work and double pay for overtime.

But he also urges doctors to remember their vocation (as does the other very good letter writing against) and reminds them that the police and the army are not allowed to strike.

I remember when the uni staff were striking my own DS wanted to go and shout "go back to work" as a counter protest.

Ah the rich, older, ladder pulling doctors who helped contribute to the current mess think it’s a vocation. Lots v close to their lovely fat pensions, which younger doctors no longer get. Have no student debt, got free accommodation and consultants who didn’t call their them useless but trained them in a team.

Let’s take the army. They pay their doctors £60,000 for F1, provide free accommodation and don’t move their doctors every 6 months. Maybe that’s a plan.

Police can retire after 30 years on a full final salary pension, maybe make that a plan.

PS the Army also pay your fees. I’m liking the army model more and more, no strike for free education and much better pay seems a plan.

Or maybe the navy ? Loan also paid for you. What a good idea this consultant has hit upon.

Makes you wonder why so few newly qualified medics don’t join up, doesn’t it? Particularly since armed forces pensions are non contributory.

It’s v competitive. Lots try but not enough jobs - sound familiar !

I am a hospital consultant of many years.

Many of us feel less and less represented by the BMA. Several colleagues have cancelled their subscriptions.

Both my residents have told me unprompted that they will not be going on strike this time. Though I would have supported them if they wished to go on strike, as I have done previously.

I wish we could get other bits right for residents. Give them their oncall rotas in good time so they can plan their lives. Not make them fight to get the day off for the wedding of a sibling. Give some consideration to eg married doctors and those with mortgages/kids at school in an area, when allocating rotations. I feel that these issues are just as important as pay.

I don’t know what the answer is. But I don’t think a strike right now will achieve the goals.

For anyone interested this is an insightful read. If too long I’ve highlighted one part.

https://archive.ph/kaTx1

@FlabbyFlabbersonFlab I’m not convinced it will happen. By calling for the strike they’ve got Wes to talk about conditions, which is as you say, a bigger issue for most. Let’s hope sensible calm heads can make some progress this year, with a plan to move forward. But the NHS can’t claim there is no money and pay PAs so much more, from day 1.

I remember all the NHS accommodation at our local college and the hospitals here. At one hospital I go to the accommodation buildings have been boarded up for years. Elsewhere demolished for car parks.

They do need accommodation that's easy to transfer to and from.