To think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike?

[Locutus2000]

Last year they got more than anyone else in the NHS along with an improved deal. Nurses and other AHPs received lower rises.

BMA have just announced another 'resident' doctor strike continuing to chase pay restoration to 2008 levels.

Having just had the major win with changes to IMG prioritisation and the clamp-down on PAs it feels a bit tone-deaf and I can't see Streeting going for it.

@MushMonster it’s not about being stupid. It’s about doing research. Starter PA £47,000, starter F1 £36,616. It’s right there - not hard to find. Government figures, not mine.

And I have no issue with PAs earning that, but I don’t understand why doctors should earn less. Day 1.

Doctors will not earn over £50,000 until 5 years out of medical school. By which time they likely a qualified GP or doing operations. Again, no issue with PAs earning that, but why are doctors earning so much less ? For a longer contractual week ? If the NHS wants to save money it could employ doctors instead of band 7/8s.

Are you comparing someone still on their training (foundation doctors) with someone with their full qualification, maybe?
You are forgetting that PA do have actually two degrees (first degree, plus then two years as PA degree)? But it looks to me like you are doing it on purpose, to be honest.
I am really not interested in wasting my time unpicking someone's twist to reality.

First degree can be in sports science, zoology or even English. They do an 18 month course. Are you saying that’s the same as 5/6 years doing Medicine? They can’t prescribe, should be supervised at all times by a consultant and can’t order ionising radiation. But on day 1 earn more than a doctor. F2s are autonomous and earn much less. 57% in 2022 had some kind of healthcare experience. Which means 43% had none.

@MushMonster I think you have exposed your lack of knowledge about resident doctors. Not surprising as the press do like to demean doctors. All doctors are ‘in training’ until they become consultants, some 10 years after qualifying. During this time they are the doctor you are most likely to see and be treated by.

Anecdotally I left the BMA after the last strike and I hope more will join me. They don’t speak for me. When I joined Drs did not strike. It was something we did not do because of harm to patients.

10 years in what’s the differential? And why the horror about no jobs? That’s what all graduates are facing. Are doctors special?

@Flitwickflight other graduates have a choice of employers. Doctors don’t.

CT 1 in England currently have a base salary of &49,909 before overtime and unsocial hours. They all do these extras, taking salary over £50K.

Under the government’s proposed raise, backdated to 1 April 2025, their base salary will be over £52K.

CT 1 begins after two years of Foundation work.

You will say what you want to say.
But... doctors are not paid less than PA, at actually comparable levels of experience. That is a fact. From the very same government website. No one is paid less than someone they supervise and manage. End of.

@ThePure not sure when you qualified but doctors strikes are not new. Here are ones in 1975 and 2016. And no harm is caused by strikes as consultants cover. Harm is caused by understaffing every other day of the year - how hard are you fighting that ?

@poetryandwinePAs get extra pay for extra hours too ? CT1 base salary is currently £49,909. PA after 2 years is £50,273. Doctors for a 40 hour week, PAs for 37.5.

Again, PAs might well be worth that salary. But if they are surely a qualified doctor is worth more as they can do more ? Today, not next year or 10 years time. If NHS wants to save money hire more F3 type jobs as they earn so much less.

Funnily enough, if the resident doctors are awarded the ~20% pay increase they are after, the 7th year consultants supervising the senior registrars (ST6-8) on ~40% pay banding will be earning less than them...

The claim that salaries have dropped since 2008 annoys me because I qualified in 2008. The restrictions on hours were just coming in then so we could only be paid for a maximum of 56 hours a week, however we still worked 70+ because it was widely expected that you stayed until all your work was done. A lot of the procedures like nasogastric tubes, bloods, cannulas, catheters etc. are done by nurses now but we had to do them all back when I started.

These days the F1/F2 doctors where I am mostly finish on time and request overtime (exception report) if they are even 30 minutes late finishing. They work an average 48 hours - yes they will do more some weeks but by definition that also means other weeks will be less! There is more specialist support (eg critical care outreach team), protected teaching time, greater availability of CT scans etc. The job is very different from how it was in 2008.

If you averaged out the salary that we got over the hours we ACTUALLY worked it was probably equivalent to what current first year doctors are getting so the constant comparisons and implications that we had it better are really frustrating.

The PA situation is awful, as is the lack of training jobs. I’d support junior doctors 100% if they took action over these issues but I don’t think they will get much sympathy on pay in the current economic climate.

Surely even you can see that glibly capitalising on an individual tragedy for political point-scoring purposes is not a good look.

I wonder if you would have said it if you had seen the number of deaths that I have that were attributable to doctors of all grades from F2 upwards making mistakes. I am drawn to the conclusion that you probably would.

So your issue really is comparison, not actual pay?

I would still appreciate a reference to why you said upthread that striking over actual working conditions has been outlawed, because I still cannot find it.

DDs deanery is still on that contract. Tough, but lots of experience.

New CY1s must know that many/most of their peers are facing unemployment in August. Yet no acknowledgement. Just more pay for them. Do they care if they erode public sympathy for those that really need it.

Surely PAs are inevitable in a system where those given training numbers are fussy and likely to leave training posts in less popular/lower paid areas after a couple of years, or not take them up at all. And where recruitment to entry level house jobs is likely to be from overseas and again recruits often leave within a short period of time for better paid jobs in England.

I agree that a focus on specific competency issues concerning PAs would probably gain traction with the public. But they should be real.

@mumsneedwine told me upthread that striking over working conditions has now become highly restricted, though the references to strike law I have found do not mention this and so I have requested clarification. If she is correct I am not sure what that would say about the ability to strike over concerns about PAs.

However IIRC some of the rail strikes concerned physical working conditions rather than pay disputes and these were defo legal…

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/07/14/junior-doctors-hospital-pizza-parties-recruit-strikes-bma/

Union feeds staff while discussing strike action. Not really news is it ?

Mr Streeting is reportedly sympathetic to improving working conditions for doctors but will not budge on salaries

But CTIs don't care. They have their secure training positions and their route to their £100,000 salaries. All they want is more.

Why worry about those who have no jobs or patients.

@Needmoresleep bit unfair. Mine has voted to strike and will be CT1 in a few weeks. Majority of resident doctors are CT1 and above so lots of others did too. She’d also strike about lack of jobs, as it affects so many of her friends. Didn’t want to strike, hates doing it, can’t really afford to, but it’s that or continue on the demoralising path the NHS is heading down.

@poetryandwine I hope they can strike about conditions as that is more important. Hope I’m out of date,

Consultants balloting over pay starts next week.