To think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike?

[Locutus2000]

Last year they got more than anyone else in the NHS along with an improved deal. Nurses and other AHPs received lower rises.

BMA have just announced another 'resident' doctor strike continuing to chase pay restoration to 2008 levels.

Having just had the major win with changes to IMG prioritisation and the clamp-down on PAs it feels a bit tone-deaf and I can't see Streeting going for it.

This says it all I think. So v sad.

https://www.bmj.com/content/384/bmj.q79

I agree.

Where has the money gone ? Mmmm

Somehow they found £300,000+ each to train DD and her peers, only to decide, presumably for 'cost saving' reasons, to recruit from abroad rather than protect entry level jobs and allow our own graduates to stay.

Think what they would have saved if they decided this policy from the outset and had closed 90% of medical schools.

That said on PAs, I think many would give up their better salaries for F2 benefits, or would if F2s had jobs to go to. I have lived long enough to know that good career progression, the job security and longevity of established medical careers, the scope for parallel private practice, and very generous pensions count for a lot on any comparison.

From news and social media reactions, others think the same way.

@Needmoresleep but they became a PA knowing that there wasn’t much career progression. And if they want to be an F2 they can - it’s called graduate medicine. 6 PAs and 4 F2s on a ward, means PAs are getting the theatre time while the F2s are doing ward work. Because the consultants find it easier as PAs don’t rotate - like F2s want to !
It’s about replacement of doctors which means less jobs. And it’s not even cheaper to do this, so why ? What’s the plan ?

Yes. So they start on higher salaries but no long term progression. Just like an Executive Secretary and a graduate trainee. So not a sensible comparator for pay negotiations.

The short term long term thing is inevitable. As described up thread on one rotation F1s were used to do the basis cannulas/catheters not because other staff could not do them, but because they were only around for a few months and no one was going to step in to protect them. (And who would blame senior staff. Not only will F2s move on from their department but in all probability they will be moving on from the NHS in August.)

I disagree. You should be paid for the job you do today not the one you may do in the future. And F2s are v often the first person at a cardiac arrest so I think they deserve pay that acknowledges this.

Consultants are paid to train doctors, not PAs. If they don’t want to (wonder who trained them) they should not be paid that portion of their salary.

That's fine. However the BMA may find that their arguments fall on deaf public/political ears.

Whilst those working within the NHS, and fearing for the NHS' future may increasingly start saying "Not in my name".

I think the NHS has no future if doctor replacement continues. The free services will mean seeing non doctors and you’ll have to pay if want an actual doctor. I hope I’m wrong but a lot of money is being given to the private sector by the government.

For treating NHS patients, I don’t have an issue with that. And you’re taking nonsense fuelled by your obsession with PAs. There will never be enough people able and willing to fund their care privately to make doctors redundant in the NHS. You’ve turned this thread into the mumsneedwine show and bored most posters into abandoning what had the potential to be an interesting discussion.

@BIossomtoes never knew I was so powerful ! Other people can post without reading mine, and v often do. I think what you mean is I don’t agree with you.

I have a feeling that mumneedswine has a child at medical school or as a recently qualified doctor.

The venom with which she jumps on criticism of doctors, however mild, makes me think there’s something extra behind her views. Like parental pride and protectiveness.

I am a teacher as well as part of an organisation that helps WP students become doctors. Have done it for years, so I know the hardships they face. They knew it would be hard but never expected to be facing unemployment- I have alumni at F2 and St/CT3 stages that don’t have a job in 4 weeks. So yes, I’m angry. I’m angry that these young people stepped up during the pandemic and people banged their pots, but now don’t think they should be paid fairly for the job they do today.

For full disclosure, as I seem to be so important, I’m also the mum of a doctor (who has got into training so no issue for them).

This thread is about doctor pay, & conditions, and I post what I’ve been told by all the resident doctors I know. As well as consultants I work with.

Hope that clears things up. Other opinions are allowed and I would never presume to shut anyone else up.

Thank you. That’s very open of you.

(I was right though, I think, for the most part.)

@Fringle The working class kids I’ve supported, who have overcome so much to succeed in being a doctor, that’s who I’m angry about. When they applied the prospects were good, pay seemed ok and jobs were there. So much has changed while they’ve been studying and working. Some of these young people graduated early to go onto Covid wards. Some still at Uni worked as HCAs on Covid wards, all while their pay was being cut.

I think nurses are treated even more appallingly, but this thread is about doctors.

Fringe I feel I should say that this appears to be an England problem, perhaps related to higher average salaries and higher average wages.

Post Covid a lot of DDs outdoorsy friends headed for the celtic fringe, and want to stay.. DD knew there would be longer hours and less money. However she is better paid than most at her sports club, was not the first to buy (a three bedroom) house during F1, and in all honesty has a good standard of living.

Yes, she would like more money, but even last time round felt that conditions were the bigger issue. They had a couple of days of strikes after the English ones, seemingly more about "don't forget us". I think the devolved government promised them something some time in the future but were clear they could not afford the English settlement. They may still be waiting. The strikes were also odd. If you were in work at 9.00am when they started, you stayed. Shifts start at 8.00am.

Instead they have been let down, effectively by Westminster and the GMC. Immigration law that does not allow for priority for those already in the country, and selection for training that makes no allowance for their longer (old contract) hours and reduced access to opportunities for research. No jobs, and the pressure of working in a health service that is really on its last legs, are much bigger concerns than pay.

I have to say that I used to be very negative about the PA role, but given the way that junior doctors are collectively behaving, the concept looks a great deal more attractive.

But then perhaps that was always the intention.

GP husband and his colleagues are furious and don’t support it at all. Interestingly, it’s (anecdotally) turning many doctors against the BMA and towards other unions.

@Marchesman not to Emily Chesterton’s parents.

@LadyRoughDiamond older doctors do seem to be v anti strike. Which I understand. But I hope they realise why their younger colleagues are so angry. When your husband qualified he likely didn’t have student debt of £100,000+, got free accommodation for first year, and had a job all the way through his career. That’s all these doctors want too. A job. And pay so they can afford their bills - no chance for doctors I know to buy a house as don’t know where they will be working next year.

Marchesman, it really really isn't all young doctors. Many qualified in order to treat patients. Pay is not holding them back. And if it is both Australia and NZ are actively recruiting.

This would free up jobs and training for those who are content (well as much as anyone is) with current pay.

@mumsneedwine that means nothing.
Utter bollocks.

The physician associate will not get paid more than the doctor who supervises them. Who, most likely, will be a senior doctor. And if it not a well experiended, cured doctor, then HR is the problem. Not the payscale.
You cannot compare the wage of an experienced PA, with that of a doctor in training and then conclude that doctors are paid 30% less. It does not work like that. And we are not stupid. Actually, you are proving that the BMA is put of touch on this point.

Husband went in as a graduate 12 years ago, got no funding and came out with £40k debt. It was terrifying as I was trying to support us financially whilst having our son, so I do get it.

The problem, from a GP perspective, is that general practice is now so badly funded that if this increase happens, trainees will be earning more than partners. With record numbers already leaving general practice, this will lead to recruitment issues and more early retirement. As it is, some practices are barely breaking even as staffing costs increase whilst the government contract remains insufficient. Let’s face it, Wes still hasn’t sorted out funding for healthcare providers and hospices to cover the employer NI increase.

@MushMonster that’s a day 1 PA salary, experienced ones are band 8a and earn over £60,000.

And read what Derriford sent to their F1/2 doctors. Ordered to sign prescriptions without reviewing patients because PA says so. Wish it was bollocks.

@LadyRoughDiamond GP is a massive mess. So under funded and over worked.